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Poland - Is the EU starting to crumble


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6 hours ago, Fluke said:

Wanting what you think is best for your Country , doesnt mean that you dislike other Countries , 

I didn’t say that wasn’t the case. The problems only start when you base your decisions on lies and deliberate misinformation leading to the consequences the U.K. is going through now - virtually all sectors of employment are now suffering due to that misguided vote. But try getting an MP to admit it ! 

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2 hours ago, mickkotlarski said:

Finally now can you understand why they want out. As stated what was once a gathering of nations for economic cooperation has turned into a political cartel. If they are in breach of EU laws when the bulk of their people are now looking for independence. Does that not tell you that people power by democratic process has given them reason to shy away from the EU.

I'm fully aware that the EU hierarchy cannot remove states. Only harass them. But more and more folk in all nations that are skeptical of the EU are having their say and the numbers are growing. Especially France, Holland and Italy. 

Like it or not but the EU has weakened and if it does not soften then game over. We may just see a league of free and independent democracies.

Spot on comments there. Increasingly the EU and the largely second hand elected politicians are flexing muscles. They mix in a circle of likeminded people and no one will pull their head out of their collective ass. If the U.K. leaving wasn’t enough for them to stop and think, then nothing short of Germany or France leaving will. Counties like Poland or Hungary leaving will be dismissed as nations who “Never bought in to the EU project”. They said the same about the U.K.  The U.K. was never in the single currency, never in Schengen and had a host of opt-outs in various treaties. Just about every senior member of the EU I have seen over the years wasn’t voted in by the electorate. Until that at least changes, then the EU cartel will be under threat. I simply don’t understand what it is they are trying to achieve and why?
 

Economic integration and tariff free trade is a reasonable objective. The EU achieved that years ago. However, if you are an EU bureaucrat then what next? Do you pack up and go home, job done?  No, you wake up each morning and think what else can we do to keep this machine rolling. What else can I think of to maintain my lofty position of influence. It’s a machinery that will never stop unless either Germany or France vote to leave. I could well see it transforming in to a core group of 5-10 nations with others affiliated to it in various ways depending on financial bribes. Sorry, I mean “contributions”.

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3 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Spot on comments there. Increasingly the EU and the largely second hand elected politicians are flexing muscles. They mix in a circle of likeminded people and no one will pull their head out of their collective ass. If the U.K. leaving wasn’t enough for them to stop and think, then nothing short of Germany or France leaving will. Counties like Poland or Hungary leaving will be dismissed as nations who “Never bought in to the EU project”. They said the same about the U.K.  The U.K. was never in the single currency, never in Schengen and had a host of opt-outs in various treaties. Just about every senior member of the EU I have seen over the years wasn’t voted in by the electorate. Until that at least changes, then the EU cartel will be under threat. I simply don’t understand what it is they are trying to achieve and why?
 

Economic integration and tariff free trade is a reasonable objective. The EU achieved that years ago. However, if you are an EU bureaucrat then what next? Do you pack up and go home, job done?  No, you wake up each morning and think what else can we do to keep this machine rolling. What else can I think of to maintain my lofty position of influence. It’s a machinery that will never stop unless either Germany or France vote to leave. I could well see it transforming in to a core group of 5-10 nations with others affiliated to it in various ways depending on financial bribes. Sorry, I mean “contributions”.

Hi Soidog. Couldn't agree with you more. I actually had a similar thought on the core of nations theory.

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4 hours ago, 23RD said:

So who's more guilty off corruption Leo Varadkar off the leaders off Poland or Hungary or are we forgetting the recent scandals off Leo Varadkar? Why are the EU not investigating Ireland as Leo Varadkar is more guilty of corruption than those leaders? The answer being Leo Varadkar is an EU shill just take a look at his Ireland 2040 plan? That brings us back to topic the EU is a failed corrupt experiment by unelected bureaucrats.

Your posts are still missing the point. Whether Varadkar has done anything wrong and the level of his venality has yet to be determined AFAIK. But even if this turns out to be true, your post is pure whataboutery, and unless two wrongs make a right, that does not excuse the corruption in Hungary and Poland.

But as you seem to want to keep attacking Ireland, consider this: Relying on the Corruption Perception Index, Ireland is ranked the 20th least corrupt country on the planet. Poland is 56th. Hungary is 69th. Hmmm? 

As for your comment "That brings us back to topic the EU is a failed corrupt experiment by unelected bureaucrats.", that really displays gross ignorance on your part. How do you think these people get their jobs? They are appointed, one each country, by the gov of the day at the time that the Commission is formed. They are like all bureaucrats, such as (UK) Chief Medical Officer of Health, Chief of the Defence Staff, Head of the Civil Service and Ambassadors, just to name a few, appointed by democratically elected govs. Remind me please; when was the last time you were asked to vote for an Ambassador? 

I cannot believe how many people bought into the false premise that these people have no democratic mandate, something that was started by Thatcher. Did she ever give anyone the right to elect the Commissioners and Members of the Councils of Ministers that the UK sent to Europe?  

Turning specifically to the word "corrupt", this might give you a real picture of the state of affairs. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36276175 It turns out that most of the "corruption", a word that I use in this case to cover errors as well as downright criminality, was nothing to do with EU itself, but was the fault of the member states distribution of the money.

Here is an extract specific to the UK: "

On 28 April 2016, the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee called on the UK government to improve how it spends EU funds.

The committee found that UK departments contribute "additional complexity" to the implementation of EU programmes, especially agricultural and rural development ones, which also drives up errors. The errors have cost the UK government "at least £650m" in penalties, to the European Commission, over the past decade.
 
From that, you might be able to glean that corruption and mismanagement is punished by the EU in that they have the powers, and use them to recover this money.
 
The report also concludes that fraud accounts for 0.2% of the EU budget. The UK National Audit Office says that fraud and error accounts for 1.9% of the entire Dept of Work and Pensions budget, and for HMRC, it was 4.4%
 
My posts might begin to give people some idea of how Brexit occurred. Thatcher says these people are unelected, but does nothing to allow the people to have a democratic vote on the issue. Someone else says the EU is a hotbed of corruption and add the lie they haven't had their accounts signed off for 20 years, when it is their own country responsible for most of the fraud and "mis-spending". Then others imply evil laws are emanating from Brussels, but they never actually describe what these laws are, and those who believe this, cannot name any of these laws let alone how they were impacted by these. Yet another will tell you the EU are heading into a super-state and "I don't want that". but as anyone who has read my posts on this thread will see, nobody ever explains what is wrong with that concept.
 
Too many believe the lies and don't do their own due diligence. But the real irony is that all these lies and half-truths emanate from politicians. If you ask most people how much they trust politicians, they will tell you they rank slightly above nonces and at about the same level as used car salesmen and tabloid journalists.
 
Please do me a favour before you post more whataboutery. Can you preface your comments by telling me whether you think two wrongs make a right, and then I can just ignore your comment.

 

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3 hours ago, Fester said:

I think that chat was about Greece?

Actually, it was about the P.I.G.S, which Palooka misidentified. Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. There were actually five of them. He left off Ireland.

Maybe he did not include Ireland because there was never any allegations against them falsifying accounts to join the EU. However, there were also never any such allegations made against Italy.

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1 hour ago, Benroon said:

I didn’t say that wasn’t the case. The problems only start when you base your decisions on lies and deliberate misinformation leading to the consequences the U.K. is going through now - virtually all sectors of employment are now suffering due to that misguided vote. But try getting an MP to admit it ! 

The U.K unemployment rates are falling and anyway , the current U.K unemployment rates is the result of Covid, rather than Brexit 

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2 minutes ago, Fluke said:

The U.K unemployment rates are falling and anyway , the current U.K unemployment rates is the result of Covid, rather than Brexit 

Really ? So why are special visas being hastily put together to attract foreign drivers ? Why not just wait until the covid stricken UK drivers get better ? 🤣

However that's what brexiteers will tell you - industry bosses think differently - ask Mr Brexit himself Tim Wetherspoon who is currently begging for migrants to save his empire !

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3 hours ago, Fester said:

More bedtime stories. You really only have your slanted opinions, innit?

That's rich coming from the man that believes the Hungarian claims that EU has replaced Russia as Hungary's oppressor. 

If you want to suggest my posts are untrue, then why not give us your version of events? 

I can just imagine you giving evidence in a witness box. An allegation is made and you say, "That's not true". So the Lawyer asks you, "Well what is the truth then"? Several days later, the Lawyer says, "Would you like me to repeat the question? We're waiting"?

You really need to get another hobby, because your trolling contributes nothing useful as far as I can see.

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9 minutes ago, Fluke said:

The U.K unemployment rates are falling and anyway , the current U.K unemployment rates is the result of Covid, rather than Brexit 

Yet there are tens of thousands of vacancies as fruit and veg pickers or truckers (50k) that remain unfilled. Much of these vacancies were previously filled by EU migrants. And what do we find? The locals don't want to the jobs. "That's imigrunts (not a typo) work".

Meanwhile Bojo is sitting in Downing St, thanking his God for sending him Covid, as he can no longer blame the EU.

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6 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Really ? So why are special visas being hastily put together to attract foreign drivers ? Why not just wait until the covid stricken UK drivers get better ? 🤣

However that's what brexiteers will tell you - industry bosses think differently - ask Mr Brexit himself Tim Wetherspoon who is currently begging for migrants to save his empire !

The freight driver shortage is a European wide problem with Germany , France , Demark, Sweden and Norway also facing a shortage of freight drivers , the reason given is that more Companies are relocating to Eastern Europe and former truck drivers prefer to to work in local factories , which has caused a shortage of Eastern European truck driver 

 

https://www.bifa.org/news/articles/2018/dec/truck-driver-shortage-crisis-now-spreading-across-the-whole-of-europe

 

   (BTW, Tim Martin Witherspoons is not" begging for migrants to save his empire" , shortages at his pubs have been caused by industrial action at Heineken)

 

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20 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Really ? So why are special visas being hastily put together to attract foreign drivers ? Why not just wait until the covid stricken UK drivers get better ? 🤣

However that's what brexiteers will tell you - industry bosses think differently - ask Mr Brexit himself Tim Wetherspoon who is currently begging for migrants to save his empire !

I am sure you know the answer to the first question, but for those who don't, in order for covid to resolve this problem of a shortfall of 50K truckers, it will need one of the side-effects of the infection to be, that they can suddenly drive a HGV without any training.

As for Wetherspoon, I do love the image of him having been hoisted on his own petard. Maybe there is god after all.

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Just now, Fluke said:

The freight driver shortage is a European wide problem with Germany , France , Demark, Sweden and Norway also facing a shortage of freight drivers , the reason given is that more Companies are relocating to Eastern Europe and former truck drivers prefer to to work in local factories , which has caused a shortage of Eastern European truck driver 

https://www.bifa.org/news/articles/2018/dec/truck-driver-shortage-crisis-now-spreading-across-the-whole-of-europe

   (BTW, Tim Martin Witherspoons is not" begging for migrants to save his empire" , shortages at his pubs have been caused by industrial action at Heineken)

What the ......you're making things up.

He has petitioned the UK government for a “reasonably liberal immigration system”' - what this translates as is I can't look a complete moron by now saying brexit was a disaster so I'll water it down and ask for  a “reasonably liberal immigration system”. 

He thought he would get rich on tattoed, overweight alcoholics coming to his soulless bars draped in Union Jacks celebrating the despatch of Johnny Foreigner and it's going wrong - as people of a higher intellect were trying to tell him.

Here's one link, of many, of him squirming

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/tim-martin-calls-for-more-eu-migration-as-wetherspoons-is-hit-by-bar-staff-shortage-272908/

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40 minutes ago, JohninDubin said:

Actually, it was about the P.I.G.S, which Palooka misidentified. Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. There were actually five of them. He left off Ireland.

Maybe he did not include Ireland because there was never any allegations against them falsifying accounts to join the EU. However, there were also never any such allegations made against Italy.

No John, the book-cooking stuff was about Greece. Have another coffee.

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36 minutes ago, JohninDubin said:

That's rich coming from the man that believes the Hungarian claims that EU has replaced Russia as Hungary's oppressor. 

If you want to suggest my posts are untrue, then why not give us your version of events? 

I can just imagine you giving evidence in a witness box. An allegation is made and you say, "That's not true". So the Lawyer asks you, "Well what is the truth then"? Several days later, the Lawyer says, "Would you like me to repeat the question? We're waiting"?

You really need to get another hobby, because your trolling contributes nothing useful as far as I can see.

What are you on about now? I just said your posts are slanted - that is the truth as I see it. What people believe to be truths may not be truths in the minds of others. We obviously don't believe the same things.

And less of the third degree Perry Mason stuff and accusations of trolling, please.

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28 minutes ago, Benroon said:

What the ......you're making things up.

He has petitioned the UK government for a “reasonably liberal immigration system”' - what this translates as is I can't look a complete moron by now saying brexit was a disaster so I'll water it down and ask for  a “reasonably liberal immigration system”. 

He thought he would get rich on tattoed, overweight alcoholics coming to his soulless bars draped in Union Jacks celebrating the despatch of Johnny Foreigner and it's going wrong - as people of a higher intellect were trying to tell him.

Here's one link, of many, of him squirming

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/tim-martin-calls-for-more-eu-migration-as-wetherspoons-is-hit-by-bar-staff-shortage-272908/

That whole publiction looks to be squirmworthy.

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5 minutes ago, Fester said:

What are you on about now? I just said your posts are slanted - that is the truth as I see it. What people believe to be truths may not be truths in the minds of others. We obviously don't believe the same things.

And less of the third degree Perry Mason stuff and accusations of trolling, please.

Surely you mean Poirot, the Belgian, not Perry Mason, the American as he had nothing to do with  European sleuthing.

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20 minutes ago, Fester said:

No John, the book-cooking stuff was about Greece. Have another coffee.

You are either lying, or you don't know what you are talking about.

Here is the original post from Palooka #78579

 

I thought that the EU would fall apart when they had the liquidity problem of the P.I.G.S., Portugal, Italy Greece and Spain some years ago.  It was suggested to me, by a corporate banker that I knew, that many of these countries cheated their way into the EU membership. Supposedly for membership you had to show so many billions of dollars or equivalent.  Apparently they all borrowed the money, showed it for membership and then repaid it, after qualifying, with huge interest.That banker retired on the commissions he made from this.

Glad the UK got out, may have short term pain but will come back stronger.

 

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26 minutes ago, Benroon said:
28 minutes ago, Benroon said:

What the ......you're making things up.

He has petitioned the UK government for a “reasonably liberal immigration system”' - what this translates as is I can't look a complete moron by now saying brexit was a disaster so I'll water it down and ask for  a “reasonably liberal immigration system”. 

He thought he would get rich on tattoed, overweight alcoholics coming to his soulless bars draped in Union Jacks celebrating the despatch of Johnny Foreigner and it's going wrong - as people of a higher intellect were trying to tell him.

Here's one link, of many, of him squirming

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/tim-martin-calls-for-more-eu-migration-as-wetherspoons-is-hit-by-bar-staff-shortage-272908/

 

As you have accused me of lying , its better if we stop this discussion and get back on topic rather than going on about Brexit . 

   I have got a valid and reasonable  response to your post , but after you accused me of lying , I prefer not to respond .

   Try to keep it civil  in the future , thanks 

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6 minutes ago, gummy said:

Surely you mean Poirot, the Belgian, not Perry Mason, the American as he had nothing to do with  European sleuthing.

How often was Hercule actually seen in court? I need a proper defence lawyer dammit!

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1 hour ago, JohninDubin said:

Your posts are still missing the point. Whether Varadkar has done anything wrong and the level of his venality has yet to be determined AFAIK. But even if this turns out to be true, your post is pure whataboutery, and unless two wrongs make a right, that does not excuse the corruption in Hungary and Poland.

But as you seem to want to keep attacking Ireland, consider this: Relying on the Corruption Perception Index, Ireland is ranked the 20th least corrupt country on the planet. Poland is 56th. Hungary is 69th. Hmmm? 

As for your comment "That brings us back to topic the EU is a failed corrupt experiment by unelected bureaucrats.", that really displays gross ignorance on your part. How do you think these people get their jobs? They are appointed, one each country, by the gov of the day at the time that the Commission is formed. They are like all bureaucrats, such as (UK) Chief Medical Officer of Health, Chief of the Defence Staff, Head of the Civil Service and Ambassadors, just to name a few, appointed by democratically elected govs. Remind me please; when was the last time you were asked to vote for an Ambassador? 

I cannot believe how many people bought into the false premise that these people have no democratic mandate, something that was started by Thatcher. Did she ever give anyone the right to elect the Commissioners and Members of the Councils of Ministers that the UK sent to Europe?  

Turning specifically to the word "corrupt", this might give you a real picture of the state of affairs. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36276175 It turns out that most of the "corruption", a word that I use in this case to cover errors as well as downright criminality, was nothing to do with EU itself, but was the fault of the member states distribution of the money.

Here is an extract specific to the UK: "

On 28 April 2016, the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee called on the UK government to improve how it spends EU funds.

The committee found that UK departments contribute "additional complexity" to the implementation of EU programmes, especially agricultural and rural development ones, which also drives up errors. The errors have cost the UK government "at least £650m" in penalties, to the European Commission, over the past decade.
 
From that, you might be able to glean that corruption and mismanagement is punished by the EU in that they have the powers, and use them to recover this money.
 
The report also concludes that fraud accounts for 0.2% of the EU budget. The UK National Audit Office says that fraud and error accounts for 1.9% of the entire Dept of Work and Pensions budget, and for HMRC, it was 4.4%
 
My posts might begin to give people some idea of how Brexit occurred. Thatcher says these people are unelected, but does nothing to allow the people to have a democratic vote on the issue. Someone else says the EU is a hotbed of corruption and add the lie they haven't had their accounts signed off for 20 years, when it is their own country responsible for most of the fraud and "mis-spending". Then others imply evil laws are emanating from Brussels, but they never actually describe what these laws are, and those who believe this, cannot name any of these laws let alone how they were impacted by these. Yet another will tell you the EU are heading into a super-state and "I don't want that". but as anyone who has read my posts on this thread will see, nobody ever explains what is wrong with that concept.
 
Too many believe the lies and don't do their own due diligence. But the real irony is that all these lies and half-truths emanate from politicians. If you ask most people how much they trust politicians, they will tell you they rank slightly above nonces and at about the same level as used car salesmen and tabloid journalists.
 
Please do me a favour before you post more whataboutery. Can you preface your comments by telling me whether you think two wrongs make a right, and then I can just ignore your comment.

Many thanks for your post John is you life story as long?.

Back onto topic Hungary and Poland might not be perfect in the eyes off many LIBERALS but to there People they have huge support strong Countries require strong leaders.

Have you noticed the Countries that don't want socialism are the one's that have lived under Communism.

 

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48 minutes ago, JohninDubin said:

Yet there are tens of thousands of vacancies as fruit and veg pickers or truckers (50k) that remain unfilled. Much of these vacancies were previously filled by EU migrants. And what do we find? The locals don't want to the jobs. "That's imigrunts (not a typo) work".

Meanwhile Bojo is sitting in Downing St, thanking his God for sending him Covid, as he can no longer blame the EU.

The E.U immigrants in the U.K were allowed to stay and work in the U.K. post Brexit .

There are now more job opportunities in Eastern Europe and they now longer want to go abroad to work 

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1 hour ago, JohninDubin said:

Your posts are still missing the point. Whether Varadkar has done anything wrong and the level of his venality has yet to be determined AFAIK. But even if this turns out to be true, your post is pure whataboutery, and unless two wrongs make a right, that does not excuse the corruption in Hungary and Poland.

But as you seem to want to keep attacking Ireland, consider this: Relying on the Corruption Perception Index, Ireland is ranked the 20th least corrupt country on the planet. Poland is 56th. Hungary is 69th. Hmmm? 

As for your comment "That brings us back to topic the EU is a failed corrupt experiment by unelected bureaucrats.", that really displays gross ignorance on your part. How do you think these people get their jobs? They are appointed, one each country, by the gov of the day at the time that the Commission is formed. They are like all bureaucrats, such as (UK) Chief Medical Officer of Health, Chief of the Defence Staff, Head of the Civil Service and Ambassadors, just to name a few, appointed by democratically elected govs. Remind me please; when was the last time you were asked to vote for an Ambassador? 

I cannot believe how many people bought into the false premise that these people have no democratic mandate, something that was started by Thatcher. Did she ever give anyone the right to elect the Commissioners and Members of the Councils of Ministers that the UK sent to Europe?  

Turning specifically to the word "corrupt", this might give you a real picture of the state of affairs. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36276175 It turns out that most of the "corruption", a word that I use in this case to cover errors as well as downright criminality, was nothing to do with EU itself, but was the fault of the member states distribution of the money.

Here is an extract specific to the UK: "

On 28 April 2016, the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee called on the UK government to improve how it spends EU funds.

The committee found that UK departments contribute "additional complexity" to the implementation of EU programmes, especially agricultural and rural development ones, which also drives up errors. The errors have cost the UK government "at least £650m" in penalties, to the European Commission, over the past decade.
 
From that, you might be able to glean that corruption and mismanagement is punished by the EU in that they have the powers, and use them to recover this money.
 
The report also concludes that fraud accounts for 0.2% of the EU budget. The UK National Audit Office says that fraud and error accounts for 1.9% of the entire Dept of Work and Pensions budget, and for HMRC, it was 4.4%
 
My posts might begin to give people some idea of how Brexit occurred. Thatcher says these people are unelected, but does nothing to allow the people to have a democratic vote on the issue. Someone else says the EU is a hotbed of corruption and add the lie they haven't had their accounts signed off for 20 years, when it is their own country responsible for most of the fraud and "mis-spending". Then others imply evil laws are emanating from Brussels, but they never actually describe what these laws are, and those who believe this, cannot name any of these laws let alone how they were impacted by these. Yet another will tell you the EU are heading into a super-state and "I don't want that". but as anyone who has read my posts on this thread will see, nobody ever explains what is wrong with that concept.
 
Too many believe the lies and don't do their own due diligence. But the real irony is that all these lies and half-truths emanate from politicians. If you ask most people how much they trust politicians, they will tell you they rank slightly above nonces and at about the same level as used car salesmen and tabloid journalists.
 
Please do me a favour before you post more whataboutery. Can you preface your comments by telling me whether you think two wrongs make a right, and then I can just ignore your comment.

The paltry "EU Funds" were only a fraction of the over generous UK contributions over the years anyway. In other words all that money was British to start with. Then EU scoop in even more when they fine us part of that. A truly fantastic system, eh?

Thank God we're out. 

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6 minutes ago, Fester said:

The paltry "EU Funds" were only a fraction of the over generous UK contributions over the years anyway. In other words all that money was British to start with. Then EU scoop in even more when they fine us part of that. A truly fantastic system, eh?

Thank God we're out. 

Don't forget that although the UK has officially left the UK there is still a few billions that the UK are required to contribute to the EU under the terms of the leaving agreement. Much of that is for joint ventures already under way.

However one old wag suspected that the bulk of it will go to Macron so as the French minor road network can be greatly improved in order to facilitate the faster movement of illegal immigrants through France and onto the coast ready for embarkation across the channel.

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11 minutes ago, Fester said:

What are you on about now? I just said your posts are slanted - that is the truth as I see it. What people believe to be truths may not be truths in the minds of others. We obviously don't believe the same things.

And less of the third degree Perry Mason stuff and accusations of trolling, please.

"that is the truth as I see it"

I think that's code for "how do explain my disingenuous comment  when he keeps hitting me with evidence"? I know. I'll tell him it's what I believe, and then it can't be a lie.

We may well not believe the same things, but at least I can back most my beliefs with facts. 

I had intended to block you yesterday, not because I disagree with you, but because most of your posts are trolling. And I am not the only person on here who has said that to you. But on the basis of one sensible post you made, I gave you the benefit the doubt. It's not that I agreed with what you had to say in that post, but because it contributed something to the debate. Since then, you have gone back into persistent troll mode, especially with your deliberately ambiguous comments. Now I accept that my willingness to engage with you was a mistake, and it violated one of the primary rules of the Internet: Don't feed the troll,

Accordingly, you are now blocked.

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  • KaptainRob changed the title to Poland - Is the EU starting to crumble
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