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Collapse of China


Stardust
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7 hours ago, Changnam43 said:

I think one of the problems the German car companies face, and indeed other companies such as Honda face, is that to a significant extent their reputations are built on the performance of their internal combustion engines.

Going into the future the ability to make a great ICE is going to be irrelevant.  For passenger cars at least it is going to be all about EV.

I think that there is a significant difference in the Chinese approach to EVs.  EVs are essentially much simpler than ICE or hybrid powered vehicles yet all western manufacturers start from the supposition that an EV must come with complex layers of tech on top.  The big touch screens, lane assist, brake assist, rear view cameras as opposed to mirrors etc etc.  All that add on tech adds to the cost of the vehicle, increases complexity and makes the vehicles harder to maintain.  It also tends to fall over if there are supply chain issues as there are right now.

By contrast while the Chinese make EVs with layers of tech on top they also make much simpler and cheaper EVs with a go pedal, a stop pedal and a steering wheel.  Such simpler cars are running around in Shenzen as taxis right now.

Where are the simple western manufactured EVs?  If the western companies do not make such vehicles they will miss out on a large part part of the market and you can be sure that someone else will fill that gap.

I would quite happily buy an EV but I don't want or need all the toys you get on a Tesla and those toys have pushed the cost beyond what I can comfortably afford. 

I hear you mate - Teslas are a great car - one of my mates bought one - goes like a bat out of hell and drives like a Ferarri.  There will be cheaper more simpler EVs in the future - right now it is very much a 'premium' product  and most of the available models are targeted at those willing to pay a lot more to 'save the planet'.  Right now I reckon a Hybrid is the best option - particularly with electricity prices likely to go up and up as Govts impose taxes/penalties on cheap coal generators to meet 20250 targets - while denying the use of nuclear generation which is far cheaper than even coal.

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5 hours ago, mickkotlarski said:

 Not to mention the electric car market Bob. Elon Musk is finding out the hard way.

Bedsides getting access to the software technology 200k+ vehicles have been deemed defective. Sure Volkswagen among others is involved in the emissions scandal but would China not be worse as I nation that has consistently swept its dirt under the mat?  

Yep - Elon is moving manufacturing from California to Texas for obvious reasons, and he will be trying even harder to maintain his IP and design innovations from China.  And yes China is by far the world's worst polluters of the air - amazing that they are not required to comply - I wonder why.

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On 10/24/2021 at 2:21 PM, PBS said:

@StardustI was curious about your claims PRC has not developed any of it's own high tech IP, especially considering PRC would have leveraged off IP transfer contracts. SO...just on my first search, for sure many others in defence, computing and so on.

China's early high-speed trains were imported or built under technology transfer agreements with foreign train-makers including Alstom, Siemens, Bombardier and Kawasaki Heavy Industries. Since the initial technological support, Chinese engineers have re-designed internal train components and built indigenous trains manufactured by the state-owned CRRC Corporation.

PRC is now the global leader for patents...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-patents-idUSKBN21P1P9

Development of chip technology

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210903005080/en/Developing-Telecoms-Chinese-14nm-Chips-to-Enter-Full-scale-Mass-Production-In-2022

Automotive example

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/chinas-automotive-industry-intensifies-electrification-082200758.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAACcuP53PpfaYXpgnqlb__eWPuXajiYRFxC9dWao9_4ozocPYJ5tg8h97aiGDtZ1krIf1iJulnlkzlib_hn01weOIxkShBGVwgiWGd7C7xK0s_w-qxiVx-SkVWxv9yyRHj1QjHfvWEnjYDOscaKYKYvJih28QCClDa73CGT5dmQZS

By the chinese regulations Mercedes and Volkswagen had to made cooperations, too, to produce in China but that doesn't mean it is chinese tech then or anything developed by chinese engineers. 

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On 10/24/2021 at 3:28 PM, Changnam43 said:

Yes.  I know all that.  None of which invalidates anything I said.  Its a German company.  Its a German developed vaccine.

Exactly developed in Germany 

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On 10/24/2021 at 2:50 PM, Chaimai said:

I thought that the Turkish couple developed it.

You should know sombody with a turkish name is the 3rd or 4th generation in Germany. They born in Germany raised in Germany and went to school there same like their parents. Their grandfathers came after the 2nd world war to work there because the companies had not enough labours at that time 1950, 1960, 1970 in Germany.

OR him sing in the bavarian mountain tribe language because he born there

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Stardust said:

By the chinese regulations Mercedes and Volkswagen had to made cooperations, too, to produce in China but that doesn't mean it is chinese tech then or anything developed by chinese engineers. 

You're talking to the past, PRC is making massive efforts with technological innovation e.g. read the link I provided for electrical cars.

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17 hours ago, Stardust said:

Pfizer is developed by Biontec and is a Germany Company from Mainz. OMG

And the couple are from Greece and Turkey. OMG 

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On 10/24/2021 at 12:53 PM, Stardust said:

Inside tech from high speed trains is not chinese! Trans rapid everything is 100% developed in Germany including all components. There is no car, train (Siemens) or any aircraft with any chinese tech inside! Yes you have knowledge about tech and productions in China! By the way I worked for a Germany company and with branches in China and all around Asia. And guess of all thos big german companies who is their biggest customer? Yes China and the USA. You never been in any big production in China or for example automotive industry in China. Machines for the production all technologies from abroad and mostly all from Germany. Automotive supplier inside China is build up from techtransfer and european companies. So so sorry to tell you that but believing is not knowing and maybe you talk with sombody who work in a multinational company in China who is the supplier or is the reality of any production. Who developed their machines, robots and automatitation for their production. I guess you think in a huwai smart phone is all chinese tech or I phone. Tech Compenents are from suppliers abroad and put together in China thats the reality.

I know where you are coming from. Most high tech machineries the components are coming from cutting edge technology countries. However, for low to mid-tier machineries, China already has the technology and components. Also, the chinese are encroaching and buying up Germans technological companies. They have the money. 

China has leverage the " foreign components" to build its empire for race to the top. Where is Siemens? 

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/china-fastest-maglev-train-intl-hnk/index.html

 

and why DB uses Chinese parts?

https://www.dw.com/en/sierens-china-a-slap-in-the-face-for-siemens/a-18480773

 

Thats is why countries cannot live without each other. It is all interconnected.

Edited by HiuMak
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1 hour ago, HiuMak said:

And the couple are from Greece and Turkey. OMG 

No from Germany with German Passport!

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42 minutes ago, HiuMak said:

I know where you are coming from. Most high tech machineries the components are coming from cutting edge technology countries. However, for low to mid-tier machineries, China already has the technology and components. Also, the chinese are encroaching and buying up Germans technological companies. They have the money. 

China has leverage the " foreign components" to build its empire for race to the top. Where is Siemens? 

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/china-fastest-maglev-train-intl-hnk/index.html

and why DB uses Chinese parts?

https://www.dw.com/en/sierens-china-a-slap-in-the-face-for-siemens/a-18480773

Thats is why countries cannot live without each other. It is all interconnected.

Omg you have no knowledge about tech. And you have never been in a production in China and never work in a company who is a supplier for productions and tech components this I know for sure now when I read your components. Maybe you should visit a production for Huawei, I phone or electrical car, train in China to understand how it works.

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47 minutes ago, HiuMak said:

I know where you are coming from. Most high tech machineries the components are coming from cutting edge technology countries. However, for low to mid-tier machineries, China already has the technology and components. Also, the chinese are encroaching and buying up Germans technological companies. They have the money. 

China has leverage the " foreign components" to build its empire for race to the top. Where is Siemens? 

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/china-fastest-maglev-train-intl-hnk/index.html

and why DB uses Chinese parts?

https://www.dw.com/en/sierens-china-a-slap-in-the-face-for-siemens/a-18480773

Thats is why countries cannot live without each other. It is all interconnected.

Omg every bigger german company who has a branch in China has also moved engeneering units there. And I told you before they must make coop with Chinese companies by the regulations. Siemens, Mercedes, Volkswagen also produces parts with the chinese coops on Chinese names in China. Try again!. As I told you before I was working for a german company and supplier in Asia. And you never have seen any productiin in Asia thats for sure! And you have no knowledge about regualtions in China and you have no knowledge about Chinese companies and who is the developper!

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13 hours ago, PBS said:

You're talking to the past, PRC is making massive efforts with technological innovation e.g. read the link I provided for electrical cars.

Where do you think the components come from?! And why do you think Tesla make huge productionside near Berlin in Brandenburg. Why do you think you find huge productionsides and developper for Batterytech? Maybe they are supplier?! And guess to where! China no1 and USA no2 where they supply to. Germany has no resources they live from engineering, developping tech and supplier for components, machines, robits etc so everything you need for productions and supply it worldwide mostly to China, USA. If you visit Companies in Germany all of them also supply to Germany and if you ever work for a company there or a branch of them in Asia or anywhere in the world you will know it. Mostly they moved also engeneering units to China because of the Chinese regulations.

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Quote

Story source: CLICK

Chinese magnesium shortage: Global car industry to grind to a halt within weeks amid 'catastrophic' halt

 

The world's largest carmakers and other users of aluminium could be forced to halt production within weeks amid a "catastrophic" shortage of magnesium across Europe.

Magnesium is a key material used in the production of aluminium alloys, which are used in everything from car parts to building materials and food packaging.

China has a near-monopoly on global magnesium manufacturing, accounting for 87 per cent of production, but the Chinese government's efforts to reduce domestic power consumption amid rising energy prices have slowed output to a trickle since September 20.

In Shaanxi and Shanxi provinces, the world's main magnesium production hubs, 25 plants had to shut down and five further plants slashed production by 50 per cent as a result of the power cuts.

Europe is expected to run out of magnesium stockpiles by the end of November.

 

spacer.png

 

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1 hour ago, HiuMak said:

I know where you are coming from. Most high tech machineries the components are coming from cutting edge technology countries. However, for low to mid-tier machineries, China already has the technology and components. Also, the chinese are encroaching and buying up Germans technological companies. They have the money. 

China has leverage the " foreign components" to build its empire for race to the top. Where is Siemens? 

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/china-fastest-maglev-train-intl-hnk/index.html

and why DB uses Chinese parts?

https://www.dw.com/en/sierens-china-a-slap-in-the-face-for-siemens/a-18480773

Thats is why countries cannot live without each other. It is all interconnected.

DB uses trains from Siemens and all parts who are from China are from branches from Siemens in China or from their cooperations but anything developed under Siemens. Try again and first work a few years in a Chinese company who is in this fields and learn who engineered or developped what. But sure for not so complicate parts Chinese are stealing and copy things if that is for you a sign for engineering then I understand your believings. China is still listed as a development country and is not listed in ranking of developed countries. By the way believing is not the same like knowing and there are many who work in that fields ir software developper or IT experts who also know what I am talking about because they have to work with it. But for sure I am not a big fan that we transfered too much tech to China and build up their productions their evil mindset the world can see now. 

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5 minutes ago, KaptainRob said:

This are the results of western countries of their outsourcing to save costs and now they got a lesson that was a major mistake to do so and that dictatorship countries never reliable or safe. They can change their laws on a daily base and with a mindset of criminals and thieves.

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1 hour ago, HiuMak said:

And the couple are from Greece and Turkey. OMG 

Where does Greece come into this story about a vaccine developed by German scientists at a German company?

 

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10 minutes ago, Stardust said:

DB uses trains from Siemens and all parts who are from China are from branches from Siemens in China or from their cooperations but anything developed under Siemens. Try again and first work a few years in a Chinese company who is in this fields and learn who engineered or developped what. But sure for not so complicate parts Chinese are stealing and copy things if that is for you a sign for engineering then I understand your believings. China is still listed as a development country and is not listed in ranking of developed countries. By the way believing is not the same like knowing and there are many who work in that fields ir software developper or IT experts who also know what I am talking about because they have to work with it. But for sure I am not a big fan that we transfered too much tech to China and build up their productions their evil mindset the world can see now. 

Well said @Stardust - in fact all of your past statements on this China matter are accurate.  But I sense a growing frustration with those members that continually respond and disagree and make ridiculous and ignorant comments. May I suggest that anyone who argues so aggressively for China being innovative and great, needs to be added to your ignore list. They clearly have some cognitive bias - and across all posts on any subject they are always pro-China.

Me suspects they are either just totally ignorant, or they are deliberately being 'difficult' - either way it is best to just ignore them. They have nothing worthwhile to say and no opinion worth listening to - if they were at our table in a pub/club, we would go find another table and continue our rational arguments and discussions without their ignorant interruptions.

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17 hours ago, AussieBob said:

I hear you mate - Teslas are a great car - one of my mates bought one - goes like a bat out of hell and drives like a Ferarri.  There will be cheaper more simpler EVs in the future - right now it is very much a 'premium' product  and most of the available models are targeted at those willing to pay a lot more to 'save the planet'.  Right now I reckon a Hybrid is the best option - particularly with electricity prices likely to go up and up as Govts impose taxes/penalties on cheap coal generators to meet 20250 targets - while denying the use of nuclear generation which is far cheaper than even coal.

In my opinion Tesla have the best EV drivetrain (by which I mean battery plus control systems plus motor) in terms  of performance and range.  Though I think it is unwise of Musk to set up production in China as this greatly increases the risk of IP theft.

Right now you are probably right about hybrids particularly in Australia where the nature of some journeys are truly abnormal in terms of the range required.

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16 minutes ago, Changnam43 said:

In my opinion Tesla have the best EV drivetrain (by which I mean battery plus control systems plus motor) in terms  of performance and range.  Though I think it is unwise of Musk to set up production in China as this greatly increases the risk of IP theft.

Right now you are probably right about hybrids particularly in Australia where the nature of some journeys are truly abnormal in terms of the range required.

Very true - but Elon has no choice really, because the dictatorship will not allow him to sell into China (and not support sales other countries in the Region) unless he agrees to make the cars in China - otherwise massive import taxes are applied. Dont get me started how the CCP has manipulated things as a 'third world country' to gain exemptions and allowances for doing things that would have any 'first world' country in front of the WTA with the threat of expulsion. And their exemptions gained from climate change actions are just plain evil.

It has been my opinion for a long time that if China is allowed to succeed, they will cause everyone else they touch to fail. Just look at Thailand for one example - if you dont think the Chinese came into Thailand after WW2 and took over business, military and government, then you are ignorant. It is what they do and have been doing for thousands of years - they slowly slowly take over - how do people think they got so big and stayed so big??

The Han Dynasty (200 AD) was basically China today, and it was as big as they are now, way back when the Roman Empire was at its peak.  Becausae of economic stagnation and what was happening in USSR, the CCP saw the natural advantages that the Chinese people had, and they have become the world's first Empire that has grown massively, without conquering any other's lands. They long ago realised the downsides of land conquests - the CCP are now 'conquering' through Trade and Finance all built on Economic Growth provided/supported by the fools in the West. We are such fools and we had such a fear of war (after WW2 and Vietnam and Korea and Iraq and Afghanistan etc etc etc), that we allowed the CCP to actually make their own lands in the oceans and then claim all the surrounding oceans as part of their country. 

Over 30 years ago I was one of the very few arguing against allowing China inside the 'chicken house', and most of what I predicted has happened - and we are still giving them 'incentives'. I truly hope and desire that they have a massive catastrophic economic collapse and end up breaking apart like USSR. I do fear that they will do what Japan did when that happened to them in 1930s/40s, but unlike so many people who are willing to give more and more to avoid that, I say bring it on and lets see who comes out on top.  

 

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35 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Very true - but Elon has no choice really, because the dictatorship will not allow him to sell into China (and not support sales other countries in the Region) unless he agrees to make the cars in China - otherwise massive import taxes are applied. Dont get me started how the CCP has manipulated things as a 'third world country' to gain exemptions and allowances for doing things that would have any 'first world' country in front of the WTA with the threat of expulsion. And their exemptions gained from climate change actions are just plain evil.

It has been my opinion for a long time that if China is allowed to succeed, they will cause everyone else they touch to fail. Just look at Thailand for one example - if you dont think the Chinese came into Thailand after WW2 and took over business, military and government, then you are ignorant. It is what they do and have been doing for thousands of years - they slowly slowly take over - how do people think they got so big and stayed so big??

The Han Dynasty (200 AD) was basically China today, and it was as big as they are now, way back when the Roman Empire was at its peak.  Becausae of economic stagnation and what was happening in USSR, the CCP saw the natural advantages that the Chinese people had, and they have become the world's first Empire that has grown massively, without conquering any other's lands. They long ago realised the downsides of land conquests - the CCP are now 'conquering' through Trade and Finance all built on Economic Growth provided/supported by the fools in the West. We are such fools and we had such a fear of war (after WW2 and Vietnam and Korea and Iraq and Afghanistan etc etc etc), that we allowed the CCP to actually make their own lands in the oceans and then claim all the surrounding oceans as part of their country. 

Over 30 years ago I was one of the very few arguing against allowing China inside the 'chicken house', and most of what I predicted has happened - and we are still giving them 'incentives'. I truly hope and desire that they have a massive catastrophic economic collapse and end up breaking apart like USSR. I do fear that they will do what Japan did when that happened to them in 1930s/40s, but unlike so many people who are willing to give more and more to avoid that, I say bring it on and lets see who comes out on top.  

Blowing ones own trumpet is nae the most honourable of actions but I truly believe in this case that great minds think the same.

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2 minutes ago, mickkotlarski said:

Blowing ones own trumpet is nae the most honourable of actions but I truly believe in this case that great minds think the same.

Lets keep that to ourselves 😁

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2 hours ago, AussieBob said:

Very true - but Elon has no choice really, because the dictatorship will not allow him to sell into China (and not support sales other countries in the Region) unless he agrees to make the cars in China - otherwise massive import taxes are applied. Dont get me started how the CCP has manipulated things as a 'third world country' to gain exemptions and allowances for doing things that would have any 'first world' country in front of the WTA with the threat of expulsion. And their exemptions gained from climate change actions are just plain evil.

It has been my opinion for a long time that if China is allowed to succeed, they will cause everyone else they touch to fail. Just look at Thailand for one example - if you dont think the Chinese came into Thailand after WW2 and took over business, military and government, then you are ignorant. It is what they do and have been doing for thousands of years - they slowly slowly take over - how do people think they got so big and stayed so big??

The Han Dynasty (200 AD) was basically China today, and it was as big as they are now, way back when the Roman Empire was at its peak.  Becausae of economic stagnation and what was happening in USSR, the CCP saw the natural advantages that the Chinese people had, and they have become the world's first Empire that has grown massively, without conquering any other's lands. They long ago realised the downsides of land conquests - the CCP are now 'conquering' through Trade and Finance all built on Economic Growth provided/supported by the fools in the West. We are such fools and we had such a fear of war (after WW2 and Vietnam and Korea and Iraq and Afghanistan etc etc etc), that we allowed the CCP to actually make their own lands in the oceans and then claim all the surrounding oceans as part of their country. 

Over 30 years ago I was one of the very few arguing against allowing China inside the 'chicken house', and most of what I predicted has happened - and we are still giving them 'incentives'. I truly hope and desire that they have a massive catastrophic economic collapse and end up breaking apart like USSR. I do fear that they will do what Japan did when that happened to them in 1930s/40s, but unlike so many people who are willing to give more and more to avoid that, I say bring it on and lets see who comes out on top.  

Some valid points however the situation in Japan in WW 2 was somewhat different.  Japan was never the imperialist power that China is becoming.  Japan had their oil reserves cut off and were encouraged into a war.  It is important to note that Japan was very worried about the rise of Communism in Asia and one must sometimes question why the US and its allies did not stand strong agains the Communist uprisings that killed tens of millions in the Soviet Union and China. As Patton said they should have marched all the way to Moscow.  He was right.  Unfortunately he died not long after.

People need to understand that Communism was never a true uprising of the people but rather an uprising by those who would soon govern them.  If anyone wants to understand how perverted the Communist ideology has become one need only look to China and it's exploitation of the "proletariat" around the world in its factories.

Edited by billywillyjones
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15 minutes ago, billywillyjones said:

Some valid points however the situation in Japan in WW 2 was somewhat different.  Japan was never the imperialist power that China is becoming.  Japan had their oil reserves cut off and were encouraged into a war.  It is important to note that Japan was very worried about the rise of Communism in Asia and one must sometimes question why the US and its allies did not stand strong agains the Communist uprisings that killed tens of millions in the Soviet Union and China. As Patton said they should have marched all the way to Moscow.  He was right.  Unfortunately he died not long after.

People need to understand that Communism was never a true uprising of the people but rather an uprising by those who would soon govern them.  If anyone wants to understand how perverted the Communist ideology has become one need only look to China and it's exploitation of the "proletariat" around the world in its factories.

Yes you are right - Japan was pushed towards economic collapse and the cutting off of the oil reserves was the 'final straw' and they took action.

I have long held the view that both Patton with regards to Russia and MacArthur with regards to China should have been the approach to take - invade and conquer.  Imagine a world today where the evils of Communism had been removed, at the same time as the evil of Nazism was removed.  It makes me angry every time I see photos of Churchill, Truman and Stalin at Potsdam, shaking hands and discussing the surrender and closing stages of WW2.   The west's appeasement caused the deaths of at least 20 million people in USSR at Stalin's hands (and more subsequently), and the sacking of MacArthur by Truman (instead of invading China as he demanded) resulted in the death of at least 30 million under the CCP (some estimates are as high 55 million). 

When you add those 2 things, to what Truman also did in dropping atomic bombs on Japan, then you can see why I truly deeply loathe the man, and why I am happy to think/hope that he is suffering in Hell. I also hope that one day rational and reasoned minds will 'correct' the historical account of WW2 and its aftermath, and declare Truman to have caused more deaths than any other person in all of human history.  If Truman had done the right thing, as Patton and MacArthur told him, neither Stalin or Mao would have caused the deaths of at least 60-80 million people, and the world would not be currently plagued by the evil that is the CCP.  

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