News Forum - Court rules for Health Ministry, calls dual pricing beneficial

[Marc26]

2 hours ago, Soidog said:

I generally agree. I certainly don’t voice the opinions I do here to my Thai friends. Most of them have learned it’s simply not worth complaining about the way things are in Thailand, as the fundamentals of what’s wrong change little.

We just had 2 extremely frustrating situations with Doctors in Thailand

One, we found out(and I suspected) that her Dentist was scamming her and kept her braces on for way too long, to the point it was damaging her teeth. They also wouldn't send her x-rays to her dentist her in Canada. Total lack of medical decorum.

Then she has another doctor we needed a referral letter for Immigration purposes. We had to ask him for weeks and he then sent a letter with information that wasn't even her! Just a total lack of caring.

 

And she basically shrugged, just accepted that she'd get screwed by medical professionals 

[mickkotlarski]

13 hours ago, LoongFred said:

Sounds like you would be happier in the  UK. How easy is it to get your wife a visa there?

 

12 hours ago, HiuMak said:

Some healthcare systems are more equal than others. There is no perfect system in any country. Thailand is not a developed country and may stay that way for a long time. Perhaps when it matures in its economic situation, governmental policies and GDP status, it will look into subsidizing heavily to residents who are non-citizens like some countries in Asia (e.g Singapore, Taiwan,etc). Most foreigners who pays tax (as an expatriat can be quite heavy for some) should be taken care of by the local healthcare systems in my opinion. However, not being a local (Thai citizen or even from provincial whose thai ID number can be different), no matter how long or how well you live and know Thailand, seems like it will not be equal. It's just how the game is. Ticket to play for me is to get health coverage and not rely fully on public healthcare support system. 

Hiu Mak Thank you for that. 

[Soidog]

28 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

We just had 2 extremely frustrating situations with Doctors in Thailand

One, we found out(and I suspected) that her Dentist was scamming her and kept her braces on for way too long, to the point it was damaging her teeth. They also wouldn't send her x-rays to her dentist her in Canada. Total lack of medical decorum.

Then she has another doctor we needed a referral letter for Immigration purposes. We had to ask him for weeks and he then sent a letter with information that wasn't even her! Just a total lack of caring.

And she basically shrugged, just accepted that she'd get screwed by medical professionals 

Just crazy. I heard similar things with dentists and other long term treatments such as dermatologists. I was advised to always agree a fixed price for the entire treatment rather than regular payments in each visit. Good advice I think 

[EdwardV]

10 hours ago, LoongFred said:

True students can purchase insurance through their school, sometimes. For a private individual to purchase health insurance it is very costly and restrictive. High premiums plus high deductibles. 

Insurance companies in the US are for profit companies.

Ok but that really wasn't the original point. Besides the fact we now have Bidencare in place of Obamacare. The point was there is virtually no tier pricing for foreigners in the US. Whether in schooling, healthcare or just about anything else.  

[Soidog]

2 hours ago, Yinn said:

Do women complain?

Oh no, I’ve never ever heard any woman ever complain. Ask any man and they will agree.

[Yinn]

1 hour ago, Marc26 said:

I actually agree with you! and usually, old white men 5555

Male menopause affect them a lot. 
But if try to help them, they angry more! 

[Fluke]

3 hours ago, Khunwilko said:

Dual pricing on things like National Parks doesn't improve income, it does reduce visitors and of course damages the Thai international image.

there is no rest to suggest the practices of other countries in any way justifies or mitigated the actions of Thailand.

Lets be realistic , most ex-pats wouldn't even go to National parks even if it was free to get in , most just seem to use it as an excuse not to go anywhere 

[Stonker]

15 hours ago, HiuMak said:

Most foreigners who pays tax (as an expatriat can be quite heavy for some) should be taken care of by the local healthcare systems in my opinion. 

I'm not sure what your understanding of the Thai healthcare system is, but as a working taxpayer you'd be fully covered by the Social Security Scheme so you wouldn't have any healthcare charges at all.

[G-DOG]

I call it racism but I'm sure someone will correct me on that.

[MikeTexas]

On 9/29/2021 at 5:51 AM, Stonker said:

Exactly! Precxisely! That's exactly and precisely what European countries already do, as well as Western countries like Australia!

Name any that don't charge non-residents and non-nationals more.

Any at all!

America doesn't charge medical rates based on nationality so there is at least one for you. 

In America you either are insured or you aren't.  If you are, then the rates are negotiated beforehand with your insurance company before the hospital/doctor/etc. sign the contract with the insurance company.  If you aren't insured then they give you their market price and then mark it down (so that you feel better).  We have our own problems with racism but it isn't racism that is legally institutionalized by the government. 

 

[MikeTexas]

On 9/29/2021 at 6:34 AM, LoongFred said:

The prices in Thailand are quite reasonable even falang price. I guess it's hard for those who get tax payer health coverage to realize that someone has to pay. Why should Thais have to pay for foreigners who choose to live here without insurance? I think these are leeches on society. 

I agree that people shouldn't be supported by others.  My question is, do most Thai have health insurance and most non-Thai do not?  I would imagine that most Thailand residents contribute to the economics of the country equally.  Any expat living, working, and/or paying taxes had probably contributed at least on par with most Thai so you can't consider them to be leeches for wanted equal pricing.  
And if most Thai do have insurance but most non-Thai do not, then why would non-Thai asians be provided lower pricing than any other non-Thai group?  In your estimates do Vietnamese or Cambodians contribute to Thailand's economics more than Europeans?

[Soidog]

1 hour ago, Fluke said:

Lets be realistic , most ex-pats wouldn't even go to National parks even if it was free to get in , most just seem to use it as an excuse not to go anywhere 

Not my experience at all. It may be true they don’t go so often, but I know lots of Thais who have never been to Bangkok or CM. I also know lots of English who have never been to the Lake District or London. If you live in a country you always plan on doing these things and yet never seem to get around to it.  

[Soidog]

37 minutes ago, MikeTexas said:

America doesn't charge medical rates based on nationality so there is at least one for you. 

In America you either are insured or you aren't.  If you are, then the rates are negotiated beforehand with your insurance company before the hospital/doctor/etc. sign the contract with the insurance company.  If you aren't insured then they give you their market price and then mark it down (so that you feel better).  We have our own problems with racism but it isn't racism that is legally institutionalized by the government. 

 

You are wasting your time with this guy. He’s read the “official policy” on line and then thinks that’s what really happens. Perhaps he also thinks that because it’s policy not to allow people to use cocaine then no one uses it?
 

One of my closest friends is an Orthopaedic surgeon with over 30 years experience. It’s a regular complaint of his regarding the poor processes and lack of incentives in place within the U.K. NHS to recover costs for foreigners. He doesn’t see it as his role to discuss such matters with patients. He has worked in 5 hospitals from Manchester in the North to Bristol in the South. He is quiet clear that unless it is a referral through a private hospital or usually a specialist clinic, then charges don’t even come in to it. The other main area where charges are easily recovered was with people from the Europe or EEA. In the case of a private clinic that becomes a charge to the private clinic or hospital and they in turn pass it on to the patient with mark-up. I’ve attached a link from “fullfact check.org which agrees with the comments by my friend.  
 

Here is a short extract which say it’s all in the sense that it is just not worth the time of the NHS and no incentive to do so.  

The money has to be recovered by the NHS bodies that provided the treatment and NHS Trusts don't have any incentive to identify overseas visitors. That's because, by flagging concerns about a patient's entitlement to free treatment, it'd be rejecting money that it would otherwise receive from the government. Once an overseas visitor is identified, the Trust instead has to recover its own debt, which will also run up administration costs.

But don’t waste your time with that guy. He reads his Google and assumes that gives him a unique window on the world. We know the reality in our own countries, and he’s just in denial. 
 

https://fullfact.org/health/health-tourists-how-much-do-they-cost-and-who-pays/

[cowslip]

6 hours ago, Soidog said:

Agree. Although the official “policy” is to charge foreigners, the reality is that unless it’s surgery requested by a foreigner, it’s rarely, if ever charged. Interestingly, if charges are made it’s usually via prior agreements such as cross charging of EU nationals. 
 

A rich foreigner who decides they wish a heart bypass at somewhere like Papworrh hospital,  as it’s a world renowned cardio hospital would be charged. However, I know for an absolute fact, that any foreigner who visits a GP (which is free) and referred to a hospital, is very unlikely to be made to pay. In the case of repeated surgery or where the foreigner has reasonable alternatives at home, they will request they return home for the surgery. Where that is detrimental to the health of the patient, it doesn’t happen. The system just is not interested in recovering costs for the relatively few people who use the service in this way. 
 

I can accept, to a point, that the U.K. can “afford” to be more benevolent than a less wealthy country. However, just because we can, doesn’t mean to say it’s fair. I have a wealthy friend, but I don’t expect him to pick up the tab for dinner each time we meet. Nice that most times he does mind you

The UK can charge - but it doesn't happen a lot as we HAD reciprocal arrangements with so many countries around the world - egg, Australia New Zealand and the EU countries.

Since Brexit you need to check what you are covered for in the EU - you now have a "Gobal Health Insurance Card" - which does not cover so much but it's low cost and for free.In the UK if you get taken sick as a foreigner the norm is you will be treated and then they work out how much you owe. You won't be shifted from hospital to j=hospital depending on your credit and you won't be subject to unethical differential peels of treatment;

 

[cowslip]

2 hours ago, Fluke said:

Lets be realistic , most ex-pats wouldn't even go to National parks even if it was free to get in , most just seem to use it as an excuse not to go anywhere 

As a tourist attraction they are grossly under-used and terribly managed and funded. If they scrapped dual pricing they would be taking the first steps towards making full use of this resource.

I say this with some dread as I've seen the way that Thailand has utterly decimated their coastal resources in the name of tourism. I've visited dozens of National Parks throughout Thailand and consider them to be the last bastion of unspoilt Thailand.

Basically they need to look at the Australian model to see how it can be done and what can be achieved.....true to form though, Thailand won't listen to anyone outside the kingdom.

 

 

[JamesR]

14 minutes ago, Khunwilko said:

The UK can charge - but it doesn't happen a lot as we HAD reciprocal arrangements with so many countries around the world - egg, Australia New Zealand and the EU countries.

Since Brexit you need to check what you are covered for in the EU - you now have a "Gobal Health Insurance Card" - which does not cover so much but it's low cost and for free.In the UK if you get taken sick as a foreigner the norm is you will be treated and then they work out how much you owe. You won't be shifted from hospital to j=hospital depending on your credit and you won't be subject to unethical differential peels of treatment;

Thanks for the info on the Global Health Card, I didn't know it existed, very useful when I travel to EU countries from the UK and it is free.

[JamesR]

5 hours ago, Marc26 said:

I actually agree with you! and usually, old white men 5555

Some women in Thailand are too busy trying to scam old white men and don't have time to complain. 

[Soidog]

33 minutes ago, Khunwilko said:

The UK can charge - but it doesn't happen a lot as we HAD reciprocal arrangements with so many countries around the world - egg, Australia New Zealand and the EU countries.

Since Brexit you need to check what you are covered for in the EU - you now have a "Gobal Health Insurance Card" - which does not cover so much but it's low cost and for free.In the UK if you get taken sick as a foreigner the norm is you will be treated and then they work out how much you owe. You won't be shifted from hospital to j=hospital depending on your credit and you won't be subject to unethical differential peels of treatment;

Correct @Khunwilko. Although they can (It’s the law), they rarely do and for a whole host of reasons. In no particular order these include:

A large list of exemptions including GP’s (a majority of minor illnesses are treated at this level). Pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases  

Reciprocal arrangements with other countries.

A multi-ethnic society which makes it very difficult to identify “foreigners” without the fear of litigation - so just don’t go there! 

A lack of incentives or process within the NHS to pursue and to recover costs. 

An overloaded system that simply prioritises health care over money. 

[Soidog]

2 hours ago, G-DOG said:

I call it racism but I'm sure someone will correct me on that.

It’s certainly discrimination based on the fact you are not of the Thai race. The recent court judgement statement on dual charging for healthcare perfectly shows where the Thai mindset is regarding non-Thais (it benefits the Thai nation. End of conversation).
 

But yes, wait another few hours for the cockerels and barking dog sounds to penetrate the walls in Issan, and I’m sure one or maybe two will put you right.

[billybob]

7 hours ago, Yinn said:

Do women complain? No

Do young people complain? No

Is only old men with male menopause. Their own problem. Be better if they return their country. You think we want listen to this people? 
 

Boring.

And that's why I love your posts Yinn - basically get over it or get out. Everybody gets shafted in Thailand unless you're very rich and powerful and why 3 months is enough for me as after that I start howling at the moon.

If you have a problem with money get your wife to negotiate for you ...if you haven't got a good wife then that's your problem. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by billybob

[Soidog]

2 minutes ago, billybob said:

And that's why I love your posts Yinn - basically get over it or get out. Everybody gets shafted in Thailand unless you're very rich and powerful and why 3 months is enough for me as after that I start howling at the moon. 

Great comments mate. I totally agree with this. The people I disagree with are those who try to pretend the things which make you start howling at the moon don’t exist, or even worse, claim they are just the same as places like the U.S, Australia or European countries. I normally do no more than 3 months but I’m going to try and do 4 or 5 months in the new year. It will be an interesting challenge…. 

[Marc]

 

§1 Me first and me only! If it is beneficial, you can do anything, even if it's discriminatory or illegal.

It starts with lies to save face and avoid consequences (e.g. how many Thai children grow up without fathers?).

Discriminatory double pricing might be one thing, but what about corruption, nepotism, and extortion? Or how about coups, human rights abuses, human trafficking, torture, missing people, rich and free cop killers, convicted drug smugglers in the government, unusually wealthy cops and officials, etc.

Everything is based on a lack of values, moral compass/authority and accountability.

Thailand, everything is possible ... but it has a high price, it prevents development. Just compare Thailand with successful and prosperous nations, especially those without natural resources.

Btm line is: this ruling is not beneficial, it is damaging the country.

Stupid and sad!

 

[Soidog]

3 minutes ago, Marc said:

Thailand, everything is possible ... but it has a high price, it prevents development. Just compare Thailand with successful and prosperous nations, especially those without natural resources.

Btm line is: this ruling is not beneficial, it is damaging the country.

Stupid and sad!

I can certainly agree with the sentiment of this part of your post. I have argued this point on a regular basis. Defending this behaviour is benefiting no one in Thailand other than those who perpetuate the class system and continue to drain the hard work and efforts of the majority in to their bank accounts. Many foreigners think it has nothing to do with them. It’s not their country. Thais can do what they want as it’s their country. It totally misses the point when it comes to universal rights such as Human Rights. Thailand has everything possible going for it and could become a country like Taiwan, Japan or South Korea if it was a more equal and fair society.
 

I genuinely feel sorry for the Thai people. I watched a few months back as the youth went face to face with water cannon and riot police. They weren’t demonstrating for lower tuition fees or even a better minimum wage. They were fighting for the right for self determination and a fair society. Even a minor acceptance of some of the things you list is despicable. 

[billybob]

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

Great comments mate. I totally agree with this. The people I disagree with are those who try to pretend the things which make you start howling at the moon don’t exist, or even worse, claim they are just the same as places like the U.S, Australia or European countries. I normally do no more than 3 months but I’m going to try and do 4 or 5 months in the new year. It will be an interesting challenge…. 

It's the smoke that gets to me in the end - looking out of the condo window  into the smog howling WHY ? It not as if the rich don't have to breathe the same air as everybody else and why would they let dirty-poorish farmer's ruin their mega bucks real estate and international reputation. As you fly into Bangkok you can see the fields burning or drive from Pattaya to Bangkok and see the same year in year out. It's not as if it's difficult to catch the culprits and then you realize that's just the way it is. If you don't like it get out of dodge - you ain't in Kansas now Dorothy. Best money I ever spent was on an air purifier. 

Mai bpen rai , mai bpen rai 

If I was Thai in  Thailand I would either be in prison or dead. 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by billybob

[Soidog]

10 minutes ago, billybob said:

It's the smoke that gets to me in the end - looking out of the condo window  into the smog howling WHY ? It not as if the rich don't have to breathe the same air as everybody else and why would they let dirty-poorish farmer's ruin their mega bucks real estate and international reputation. As you fly into Bangkok you can see the fields burning or drive from Pattaya to Bangkok and see the same year in year out. It's not as if it's difficult to catch the culprits and then you realize that's just the way it is. If you don't like it get out of dodge - you ain't in Kansas now Dorothy. Best money I ever spent was on an air purifier. 

Mai bpen rai , mai bpen rai 

If I was Thai in  Thailand I would either be in prison or dead. 

Yes, the burning season can be very bad, especially in the North and around CM. 
 

Ive often said the same about being born Thai and living in Thailand. I think I would either be in prison or dead in a ditch. My Thai friends tell me I wouldn’t be as I would think differently. There is a saying which often recall in such situations:

If you were born where they were born. If you saw what they see. If you heard what they hear. You would think like they think and do what they do. 

There is a lot of truth in that I think. Most Thais simply accept their lot and work hard to make a living and get by. It’s harder for foreigners as we know it really doesn’t need it be like it is.