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The future of a transgender Malaysian businesswoman hangs in the balance after she was arrested for illegally entering Thailand while fleeing prosecution under Islamic law in Malaysia. Nur Sajet fled from Malaysia where she faces charges of up to three years in prison and a fine for dressing as a woman in 2018 at a religious event. The transgender cosmetics company owner fled Malaysia earlier this year by entering Thailand illegally. She was arrested earlier in September for the illegal entry and found guilty by the court but released on bail. Normally she would face deportation but human rights groups […]

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I can't even pretend that I understand 'Trans' people at all; it frankly just seems weird to me.

That said, the sheer number of people globally who are 'Trans' and publicly identify that way, even knowing the trouble it will cause them, is large. In Thailand, our adopted home, we have the Ladyboys and they are an accepted element to Thai society and, on the few times I have ever chatted with them, a good laugh as well. 

The basic question to me is this; are our societies large enough to accommodate those who are different? I hope that the answer is 'yes'.

Finally, the key phrase in determining if a person is eligible for refugee status is "...A well-founded fear of being prosecuted..." Does this person meet that test? I think yes.

Be kind, Thailand, and give them refuge.

 

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Serious criminals, terrorists etc Yes send them back. This person (nb woke police) has dressed as a female in public. The country is riddled with corruption and they waste their resources on this matter.

Crossed the border illegally, give the person a fine if you have to, but this person has broken no other laws other than run for fear of unjust retribution based on religious grounds not common law, at least I hope not.

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28 minutes ago, Shade_Wilder said:

I can't even pretend that I understand 'Trans' people at all; it frankly just seems weird to me.

That said, the sheer number of people globally who are 'Trans' and publicly identify that way, even knowing the trouble it will cause them, is large. In Thailand, our adopted home, we have the Ladyboys and they are an accepted element to Thai society and, on the few times I have ever chatted with them, a good laugh as well. 

The basic question to me is this; are our societies large enough to accommodate those who are different? I hope that the answer is 'yes'.

Finally, the key phrase in determining if a person is eligible for refugee status is "...A well-founded fear of being prosecuted..." Does this person meet that test? I think yes.

Be kind, Thailand, and give them refuge.

They are also quite useful when you cannot get a jam jar open 

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33 minutes ago, Shade_Wilder said:

I can't even pretend that I understand 'Trans' people at all; it frankly just seems weird to me.

That said, the sheer number of people globally who are 'Trans' and publicly identify that way, even knowing the trouble it will cause them, is large. In Thailand, our adopted home, we have the Ladyboys and they are an accepted element to Thai society and, on the few times I have ever chatted with them, a good laugh as well. 

The basic question to me is this; are our societies large enough to accommodate those who are different? I hope that the answer is 'yes'.

Finally, the key phrase in determining if a person is eligible for refugee status is "...A well-founded fear of being prosecuted..." Does this person meet that test? I think yes.

Be kind, Thailand, and give them refuge.

As long as you accept,"understanding" is a bit superfluous.

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If this was a simple case of being persecuted for being a trans I say let it stay. However they/them/it has been posting on social media and enjoying the notoriety, hardly keeping a low and previously tolerated profile. Is this person crying out on behalf of  other trans people? Not that I can hear. It’s been blatant self promotion for profit, the effluent of the narcissistic plague sweeping the globe. And they/them/it wants to go to Australia? Why not stay in Thailand where trans are accepted, celebrated and respected? Break the law and get a free pass to a first world country? Not on my shift, buddy.

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9 minutes ago, Fanta said:

If this was a simple case of being persecuted for being a trans I say let it stay. However they/them/it has been posting on social media and enjoying the notoriety, hardly keeping a low and previously tolerated profile. Is this person crying out on behalf of  other trans people? Not that I can hear. It’s been blatant self promotion for profit, the effluent of the narcissistic plague sweeping the globe. And they/them/it wants to go to Australia? Why not stay in Thailand where trans are accepted, celebrated and respected? Break the law and get a free pass to a first world country? Not on my shift, buddy.

Very well put

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If she is allowed to stay it sets a dangerous precedent for every gay/trans/lesbian living in muslim countries to simply get here then not go back.

No country should be forced to accept that.

However all countries should be putting pressure on Islamic states to drag themselves out of the dark ages and stop persecuting people just because of their sexual orientation. 

If that means international sanctions then so be it. 

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Just now, Rookiescot said:

If she is allowed to stay it sets a dangerous precedent for every gay/trans/lesbian living in muslim countries to simply get here then not go back.

No country should be forced to accept that.

However all countries should be putting pressure on Islamic states to drag themselves out of the dark ages and stop persecuting people just because of their sexual orientation. 

If that means international sanctions then so be it. 

I disagree. Every country should have the right to live under the rules and lifestyle deemed acceptable by the majority. 

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Just now, Rookiescot said:

So minorities should be persecuted if thats the will of the majority?

Did I say that ? or just your distorted view that your personal opinion is the one to be upheld world wide ?

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7 minutes ago, gummy said:

Did I say that ? or just your distorted view that your personal opinion is the one to be upheld world wide ?

Well you did say that 

 

17 minutes ago, gummy said:

I disagree. Every country should have the right to live under the rules and lifestyle deemed acceptable by the majority

So I am asking if its the will of the majority to persecute minorities is that OK with you?

What about Christians being persecuted in Muslim countries because they are a minority? 

Is that OK?

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1 hour ago, Fanta said:

If this was a simple case of being persecuted for being a trans I say let it stay. However they/them/it has been posting on social media and enjoying the notoriety, hardly keeping a low and previously tolerated profile. Is this person crying out on behalf of  other trans people? Not that I can hear. It’s been blatant self promotion for profit, the effluent of the narcissistic plague sweeping the globe. And they/them/it wants to go to Australia? Why not stay in Thailand where trans are accepted, celebrated and respected? Break the law and get a free pass to a first world country? Not on my shift, buddy.

Talk about sensitivity!

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13 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Well you did say that 

So I am asking if its the will of the majority to persecute minorities is that OK with you?

What about Christians being persecuted in Muslim countries because they are a minority? 

Is that OK?

Seems like you have reading difficulties

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This is such a difficult subject. I’ve read the posts thus far and I find myself agreeing with many elements on both sides of the debate. 
 

One thing to bear in mind. Thailand is NOT a signatory of the 1951 UN Human Rights Convention and does not have a formal national asylum framework. Although it works closely with the UNHCR, it is not bound by many aspects of its international commitments. Much of its work is to make sure other countries take refugees from Myanmar they don’t want in Thailand.   
 

I have no issue with anyone living their life how they choose. I also agree the international community should put pressure on countries to soften extreme positions. However, all too often, such pressure becomes politicised and you end up with China and Russia opposing western democracies. 
 

I find myself particularly agreeing with the points regarding the publicity she seems to be promoting and the point about her desire to go to Australia. Refugees, if that’s what she is, should stay in the first country they find shelter. All too often they travel to the nearest “safe” country and then want onward passage to a first world county. The local media in places like Australia and U.K. whip up local emotions and demand the person should be allowed to enter.  The country the person is in then simply threaten to send them back. This is enough for Australia, U.K. and often Canada to put their hand up and say we will grant them entry. The people doing it all know the game. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she ends up in one of these countries soon. 
 

The real international pressure should come on countries like Thailand to become formal members of the 1951 Human Rights Convention. The U.S could do that overnight virtually. I wonder why they don’t do that? Now let me think….🤔🤔

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2 hours ago, Fanta said:

If this was a simple case of being persecuted for being a trans I say let it stay. However they/them/it has been posting on social media and enjoying the notoriety, hardly keeping a low and previously tolerated profile. Is this person crying out on behalf of  other trans people? Not that I can hear. It’s been blatant self promotion for profit, the effluent of the narcissistic plague sweeping the globe. And they/them/it wants to go to Australia? Why not stay in Thailand where trans are accepted, celebrated and respected? Break the law and get a free pass to a first world country? Not on my shift, buddy.

Thank God people like you are in a dying minority and you don't have a "shift".

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1 hour ago, Soidog said:

The real international pressure should come on countries like Thailand to become formal members of the 1951 Human Rights Convention. The U.S could do that overnight virtually. I wonder why they don’t do that? Now let me think….🤔🤔

Presumably you mean the 1951 Refugee Convention.

The US  probably hasn't put pressure on Thailand to sign up to the 1951 Convention because the US themselves haven't signed up to it, which would make pressuring others to do so difficult.

The US has only signed up to the 1967 Protocol to the Convention, which excludes a number of the key Articles and obligations.

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2 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Maybe you could elaborate, as that does seem to be what you're saying.

Well if you say "seem to be" that indicates you did not read what I said accurately. either, or else did not understand it.

What I did say was  "I disagree. Every country should have the right to live under the rules and lifestyle deemed acceptable by the majority. ". And that has nothing to do with the stupidity of the reply which asked "So minorities should be persecuted if thats the will of the majority?"

So simply put, which I guess it has to be simple, anything  that in yours or anybody elses minds that "seems to be"  is purely a figment of your imagination.

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2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

If she is allowed to stay it sets a dangerous precedent for every gay/trans/lesbian living in muslim countries to simply get here then not go back.

So what would you suggest as an alternative - particularly when it's far from only Islamic countries that are in the "dark ages ... persecuting people just because of their sexual orientation" but many Christian countries as well.

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1 hour ago, Soidog said:

This is such a difficult subject. I’ve read the posts thus far and I find myself agreeing with many elements on both sides of the debate. 
 

One thing to bear in mind. Thailand is NOT a signatory of the 1951 UN Human Rights Convention and does not have a formal national asylum framework. Although it works closely with the UNHCR, it is not bound by many aspects of its international commitments. Much of its work is to make sure other countries take refugees from Myanmar they don’t want in Thailand.   
 

I have no issue with anyone living their life how they choose. I also agree the international community should put pressure on countries to soften extreme positions. However, all too often, such pressure becomes politicised and you end up with China and Russia opposing western democracies. 
 

I find myself particularly agreeing with the points regarding the publicity she seems to be promoting and the point about her desire to go to Australia. Refugees, if that’s what she is, should stay in the first country they find shelter. All too often they travel to the nearest “safe” country and then want onward passage to a first world county. The local media in places like Australia and U.K. whip up local emotions and demand the person should be allowed to enter.  The country the person is in then simply threaten to send them back. This is enough for Australia, U.K. and often Canada to put their hand up and say we will grant them entry. The people doing it all know the game. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she ends up in one of these countries soon. 
 

The real international pressure should come on countries like Thailand to become formal members of the 1951 Human Rights Convention. The U.S could do that overnight virtually. I wonder why they don’t do that? Now let me think….🤔🤔

 

 
What an extraordinary post, Mr Dog! I read through it and then had the thought "there is a person who is trying to be a 'hater', but is too decent to pull it off",
 
Respectfully, allow me to take your letter and look at some of the issues raised in a different light.
 
It's true about Thailand not being a signatory of the '51 treaty, but so what? Thailand is a signatory to the UN charter and accepted both the rights and responsibilities contained therein. Okay, fair enough, it didn't specifically agree to certain, specific frameworks, but simply joining the UN implies acceptance. To sound a wee bit lawyerly (Boo! Hiss! Boo!), it is like saying you liked cooked ground beef, tomatoes, corn-based shells, lettuce, cheese, onions, jalapeño peppers and hot sauce, but never agreed that you would eat tacos. Further, Thailand participates in several global exercises regarding movement of peoples, refugees, etc., implying that in fact it does feel bound by international norms (participating in the US Annual Trafficking report and hosting staff from the IOM, for example). Finally, while many globally talk about UN treaties/resolutions being legally binding, the reality is that they are not; they are statements of principal that countries agree to abide by (Let me provide an example of the concept above. The US-Iraq war in the early 2000s went to the UN Security Council. Three countries said it was not allowed, two countries said it was. There is no independent adjudication, so both sides were correct.). To sum up, Thailand behaves as if it were a signatory to the treaty, and if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it is a duck.
 
Is international pressure on countries to treat their citizens better a bad thing? I don't think so. Do China and Russia often oppose the Western Democracies? Yes, but they are wrong, so who gives a Rat's Ass what they think. Ask people whether they would rather be a citizen of a Western Democracy or of China/Russia, and we both know what the answer will be. End of.
 
There seems to be condemnation that she is publicizing her case for nefarious reasons. Respectfully, I wouldn't place absolute faith in the Thai government to do the right thing, rather I'd tell the world in the hope that my case wouldn't be dealt with quietly and on the side. I see this merely as an insurance policy to ensure that things aren't quietly 'taken care of' on the backhand.
 
There seems to be condemnation that she wants to go to Australia rather than stay in Thailand. Respectfully, in her shoes, wouldn't you? In Oz, she can expect a better life, live as she pleases and not worry about some unscrupulous immigration agent sending her back over the border in return for a back-hander. While I like living in Thailand, in her shoes I'd be looking at another, slightly further away place that respected Human Rights to settle in.
 
Respectfully, you make it sound like the UK, Australia and/or Canada are somehow deceived into taking refugees and are played for suckers. I look at it differently; I see countries stepping up, living by their principles as best they can, and trying to do the right thing; they should be admired for it. Forgive me, but having countries try to do the right thing as they see it is good. Very good. Very, very good.
 
I think Trans people are weird; as noted above, I can't even pretend that I don't. That said, if she is going to face persecution in her native land, there should be a mechanism whereby she can flee. Is the global refugee system perfect? Nope. Is the global system of Human Rights perfect? Nope. Would she be a model citizen in Oz, if she makes it? I have no idea. But, if she does get sent back to Malaysia, she will be both persecuted and prosecuted, and that would be morally wrong.
 
 

 

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Just now, Stonker said:

So what would you suggest as an alternative - particularly when it's far from only Islamic countries that are in the "dark ages ... persecuting people just because of their sexual orientation" but many Christian countries as well.

I don't suggest any thing as an alternative it was not the point of my post which you clearly do not understand either.

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2 hours ago, gummy said:

I disagree. Every country should have the right to live under the rules and lifestyle deemed acceptable by the majority. 

You agree that Iran should have the right to  continue stoning females to death and also throwing homosexuals off the top of high buildings ?

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