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Vaccine hesitancy testing the patience of fully inoculated Americans


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4 hours ago, BlueSphinx said:

Yes, it seems some of the vaccinated are very angry at the unvaccinated because the vaccines don't work... 

Read a tweet which sums up it nicely: "The unvaccinated need to be vaccinated to protect the vaccinated? I’m sure there’s a parallel universe where this makes sense, but not this one!"

There’s a good spin there I think. It’s not to protect the vaccinated. It’s so the unvaccinated don’t keep getting sick and going in to hospital and spreading it around as much. All of this is holding the economies of the world back and causing more opportunity for further mutations. The world can’t move forward unless we limit the spread, hospitalisations and death of Covid. Vaccines limit all three.  Get your jab and let’s all get back to a normal life.  

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3 hours ago, 9S_ said:

Can’t really blame them when a CDC document like this is leaked to the Washington Post stating:

>Studies showing that vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated. Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant.

Well, you can blame them if they fail to notice that the document says "may" so it's not yet known, that it only refers to one of many variants, or if they don't realise that propensity to transmission is based on a number of factors, not just one.

 

You can also blame them if they're stupid enough not to read further but just accept the interpretation they're fed by self-styled experts who've lost their medical licence indefinitely due to fraud and malpractice.

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10 minutes ago, Soidog said:

There’s a good spin there I think. It’s not to protect the vaccinated. It’s so the unvaccinated don’t keep getting sick and going in to hospital and spreading it around as much.

It's both - it's to protect everyone.

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12 minutes ago, stevenkongju said:

Diseases are eradicated not because vaccines are 100% effective. They are eradicated because, if enough people use the vaccines, there are not enough places for the virus to go. A virus basically dies out because it can't reproduce.  Was that your point?

Yes, that's the point, but that's not what the average "novaxxer" believes, in my opinion.  While polio, rubella and smallpox have between a 95%-100% efficacy rate, it was the widespread inoculations that essentially put an end to these diseases.  They don't think like that...they look at past successful inoculation campaigns and believe this should be the same, and if that promise isn't there, then the vaccinations mustn't have any worth.

They don't take into account that the flu changes every year, and susceptible portions of the population are encouraged to get a vaccine to mitigate its worst effects. They grasp at straws in their lack of knowledge and understanding and put themselves and others at greater risk.

I think the the greatest way to solve the antivax problem is to give the illness to each of them, so they can build their "natural" immunity.

Darwinism will finish the job.

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21 minutes ago, sputnik said:

read my post carefully....

with many I spoke they believe the vaccine make them immun catching covid19 and in their logic it will prevent them from passing it on...

( like vaccines has done before )

both is absolutely wrong ONLY if they believe that the vaccine increase their chance of survival they are right....

for me it looks this wrong believe is very widespread....

so i concluded weak educated mass...

if you tell the truth in thailand you see the fear in their eyes....

covid 19 never will never leave the planet

that much is sure....maybe in the far future their might be a vaccine that really immunise the people...for now the stuff they give them here ( sinovac etc ) is a bad joke

You must have either spoken to a lot of very "weak uneducated mass ..."  or spoken to them quite a while ago.

I've never spoken to anyone recently who thinks that, and I live in rural Isan.

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1 hour ago, Stonker said:

 A "personal" choice like which side of the road to drive on, or which way to drive down a one-way road?

Or whether to wear a seat belt or a motorbike helmet?

If you drive the wrong way down the road, you may be fine or you may get hurt - your choice.

But you could also kill people, either directly by driving into them or indirectly by making them swerve into each other, and even if no-one was hurt you'd make things difficult for everybody else.

If you don't wear a seat belt or a motorbike helmet you're the one most likely to be hurt, but if you're hurt you're also going to be taking an ambulance or a hospital bed away from others and, again, making things difficult for anyone else.

Not getting vaccinated is just the same - yes, you're the one taking most risk but you're directly affecting others, whether it's being more likely to pass on the virus, so putting others at risk or forcing others to carry on wearing masks and distancing to mitigate your actions, or taking up a hospital bed and staff who are badly needed to take care of others.

YOU'RE  NOT  THE  ONLY  ONE  AFFECTED  BY  YOUR  ACTIONS.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Virtue signaling is really not the best argument. Especially when there are effective early treatment options available that seem to be purposely muffled by certain entities. 

 

Here is the data. 

 

Lowest rate of vaccination rates by ethnicity. 

It tells you something when a large percentage of health care workers in NYC have not been vaccinated. 

 

 

 

Screenshot_20210730_173739.jpg

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1 hour ago, Stonker said:

 A "personal" choice like which side of the road to drive on, or which way to drive down a one-way road?

Or whether to wear a seat belt or a motorbike helmet?

If you drive the wrong way down the road, you may be fine or you may get hurt - your choice.

But you could also kill people, either directly by driving into them or indirectly by making them swerve into each other, and even if no-one was hurt you'd make things difficult for everybody else.

If you don't wear a seat belt or a motorbike helmet you're the one most likely to be hurt, but if you're hurt you're also going to be taking an ambulance or a hospital bed away from others and, again, making things difficult for anyone else.

Not getting vaccinated is just the same - yes, you're the one taking most risk but you're directly affecting others, whether it's being more likely to pass on the virus, so putting others at risk or forcing others to carry on wearing masks and distancing to mitigate your actions, or taking up a hospital bed and staff who are badly needed to take care of others.

YOU'RE  NOT  THE  ONLY  ONE  AFFECTED  BY  YOUR  ACTIONS.

Why is that so hard to understand?

There is the confusion. You hold to the idea that what I do with my body some how is your concern. And your parallel or seatbelts and one way traffic is a logical fallacy. Just because one side of you comparison is true does not mean the other is also. You are trying to hold the people hostage based on your opinion. My choice not to get the vaccine is not the same as driving the wrong way down the road. Thus far there is just as much evidence to show COVID will spread despite the vaccines. You choose to do what you want and I won’t criticize you for it. But my family and my life are none of your business. If the vaccine is that good you don’t have anything to worry about you already got your… good for you. If not then “herd immunity”  won’t stop it and it was a waste of time. 
Finally, show me your research on vaccines and convenience me based on your evidence. As for what you commented on it seems you are just following the narrative without doing your homework. Granted, research is difficult concerning COVID vaccines because of all the bad information on both sides of the argument.

 

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

 A "personal" choice like which side of the road to drive on, or which way to drive down a one-way road?

Or whether to wear a seat belt or a motorbike helmet?

If you drive the wrong way down the road, you may be fine or you may get hurt - your choice.

But you could also kill people, either directly by driving into them or indirectly by making them swerve into each other, and even if no-one was hurt you'd make things difficult for everybody else.

If you don't wear a seat belt or a motorbike helmet you're the one most likely to be hurt, but if you're hurt you're also going to be taking an ambulance or a hospital bed away from others and, again, making things difficult for anyone else.

Not getting vaccinated is just the same - yes, you're the one taking most risk but you're directly affecting others, whether it's being more likely to pass on the virus, so putting others at risk or forcing others to carry on wearing masks and distancing to mitigate your actions, or taking up a hospital bed and staff who are badly needed to take care of others.

YOU'RE  NOT  THE  ONLY  ONE  AFFECTED  BY  YOUR  ACTIONS.

Why is that so hard to understand?

 

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44 minutes ago, Jeffpky said:

My choice not to get the vaccine is not the same as driving the wrong way down the road.

Why is it not the same? You could exercise your personal choice to drive the wrong way down the road (Thais do it all the time!). It’s selfish and dangerous but they still do it. Perhaps the analogy is too strong. What then the choice to shower each day. That’s a personal choice, but you would have many people unhappy about you if you choose not to! 

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I think people choosing not to get vaccinated fall in to a number of broad categories. 

Those that for medical reasons are advised not to.

 
Those who are genuinely concerned such as pregnant women or the very young. 
 
Those who are plain scarred about needles and vaccines.

 
Those who are just recalcitrant or belligerent and will not be told to do anything. They know their rights and will not follow convention.

 
And finally, NUTTERS

If you have the option to be vaccinated but chosen not to, which of the above are you? 

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2 hours ago, Stonker said:

 A "personal" choice like which side of the road to drive on, or which way to drive down a one-way road?

Or whether to wear a seat belt or a motorbike helmet?

If you drive the wrong way down the road, you may be fine or you may get hurt - your choice.

But you could also kill people, either directly by driving into them or indirectly by making them swerve into each other, and even if no-one was hurt you'd make things difficult for everybody else.

If you don't wear a seat belt or a motorbike helmet you're the one most likely to be hurt, but if you're hurt you're also going to be taking an ambulance or a hospital bed away from others and, again, making things difficult for anyone else.

Not getting vaccinated is just the same - yes, you're the one taking most risk but you're directly affecting others, whether it's being more likely to pass on the virus, so putting others at risk or forcing others to carry on wearing masks and distancing to mitigate your actions, or taking up a hospital bed and staff who are badly needed to take care of others.

YOU'RE  NOT  THE  ONLY  ONE  AFFECTED  BY  YOUR  ACTIONS.

Why is that so hard to understand?

You wrote: Why is that so hard to understand?  Because your comparison of getting an experimental jab with driving the wrong way on a one-way street is TOTAL BS. 

The fable of the unvaccinated asymptomatic spreader which lead to total panic (the invisible enemy) has been completely debunked, but is still living on.  It is ironic that the fable was almost correct but that we had to wait till mass-vaccination started to make it a reality ... only difference being that it are actually the VACCINATED that will be the main asymptomatic spreaders, because the vaccine suppresses their symptoms.

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2 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

You wrote: Why is that so hard to understand?  Because your comparison of getting an experimental jab with driving the wrong way on a one-way street is TOTAL BS. 

The fable of the unvaccinated asymptomatic spreader which lead to total panic (the invisible enemy) has been completely debunked, but is still living on.  It is ironic that the fable was almost correct but that we had to wait till mass-vaccination started to make it a reality ... only difference being that it are actually the VACCINATED that will be the main asymptomatic spreaders, because the vaccine suppresses their symptoms.

Sorry, but these are not experimental jabs. They are jabs (vaccines) that have gone through many stages of clinical trials using tried and tested methods. They are vaccines that have now been administered to hundreds of millions of people with very small (anticipated) numbers of people who had severe reactions and deaths. The term “experimental” suggests untested. That’s simply misleading. 
 

The definition of experimental:

 

experimental
/ɪkˌspɛrɪˈmɛnt(ə)l,ɛkˌspɛrɪˈmɛnt(ə)l/
 
adjective
  1. 1. 
    (of a new invention or product) based on untested ideas or techniques and not yet established or finalized.
    "an experimental drug"
     
    These are not untested ideas or techniques. They have been thoroughly tested.  

 

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4 minutes ago, Soidog said:

I think people choosing not to get vaccinated fall in to a number of broad categories. 

Those that for medical reasons are advised not to.

 
Those who are genuinely concerned such as pregnant women or the very young. 
 
Those who are plain scarred about needles and vaccines.

 
Those who are just recalcitrant or belligerent and will not be told to do anything. They know their rights and will not follow convention.

 
And finally, NUTTERS

If you have the option to be vaccinated but chosen not to, which of the above are you? 

You wrote > If you have the option to be vaccinated but chosen not to, which of the above are you? 

The undefined category in your overview > Being the well-informed having done their research on both sides of the argument, and that research combined with common sense, leading them to the conclusion that for their age/health condition the risks of taking the vaccine are considerably higher than strengthening their immune system by a healthy life-style and having access to effective remedies in case they catch it (which will eventually happen).

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1 minute ago, Soidog said:

Sorry, but these are not experimental jabs. They are jabs (vaccines) that have gone through many stages of clinical trials using tried and tested methods. They are vaccines that have now been administered to hundreds of millions of people with very small (anticipated) numbers of people who had severe reactions and deaths. The term “experimental” suggests untested. That’s simply misleading. 
 

The definition of experimental:

experimental
/ɪkˌspɛrɪˈmɛnt(ə)l,ɛkˌspɛrɪˈmɛnt(ə)l/
 
adjective
  1. 1. 
    (of a new invention or product) based on untested ideas or techniques and not yet established or finalized.
    "an experimental drug"
     
    These are not untested ideas or techniques. They have been thoroughly tested.  

Playing with words > all of these jabs have been 'approved for emergency use' which is NOT the same as being formally approved after having gone through all the required stages.  So the word 'experimental' is actually quite accurate, as the tests have not been finalized (see your definition).

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22 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

Playing with words > all of these jabs have been 'approved for emergency use' which is NOT the same as being formally approved after having gone through all the required stages.  So the word 'experimental' is actually quite accurate, as the tests have not been finalized (see your definition).

That's double talk and we could get deep on this topic itself. There's a lot of double talk going on.

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44 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

Playing with words > all of these jabs have been 'approved for emergency use' which is NOT the same as being formally approved after having gone through all the required stages.  So the word 'experimental' is actually quite accurate, as the tests have not been finalized (see your definition).

Sorry but that’s simply untrue. The Oxford AZ vaccine has not been approved for emergency use. What has happens is that governments across the world have thrown billions of Pounds Dollars etc in to the whole process of development and production. The pandemic resulted in the need to expedite the process but not bypass it. It’s fair to say, if the same approach was adopted for illnesses such as cancer, within 18 months we would be in a far better place with deaths from cancers. But cancer isn’t a pandemic and doesn’t bring the world to a halt. 

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52 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

You wrote > If you have the option to be vaccinated but chosen not to, which of the above are you? 

The undefined category in your overview > Being the well-informed having done their research on both sides of the argument, and that research combined with common sense, leading them to the conclusion that for their age/health condition the risks of taking the vaccine are considerably higher than strengthening their immune system by a healthy life-style and having access to effective remedies in case they catch it (which will eventually happen).

Again I’m sorry to disagree. It takes a particular self belief to suggest you as an individual know more about this than world leading virologists and clinicians around the world. Not to mention the real world data that you can see for yourself. These vaccines work. The reduce the risk of severe illness and death and reduce your chances of contracting the virus.  

Some of what you say about a healthy lifestyle is true for all illnesses. Unfortunate a great many of people don’t have healthy lifestyles and they are falling sick with this virus. 
 

Get the jab ! 

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2 hours ago, mcambl61 said:

Virtue signaling is really not the best argument.

Where's the "virtue signaling"?

If you don't think that society has a duty to protect its weaker members and that the common good is at least as important as individual rights then you need to take a long hard look at yourself and the sort of world you want to live in.

2 hours ago, mcambl61 said:

Especially when there are effective early treatment options available that seem to be purposely muffled by certain entities. 

What "effective early treatment options"?

Some have been identified as having potential and needing further study, such as ivermectin, but none have yet been validated and shown to be effective.

None.

If that's wrong and you can show any verifiable, peer reviewed studies then I'll apologise, but please at least do me the courtesy of reading any links yourself, unlike the last lot of BS from @BS which not only didn't support his claim but contradicted it.

2 hours ago, mcambl61 said:

Here is the data. 

Lowest rate of vaccination rates by ethnicity. 

It tells you something when a large percentage of health care workers in NYC have not been vaccinated. 

What "data"? ?

You've given a chart showing vaccination rates by ethnicity, then said that "it tells you something when a large percentage of health care workers in NYC have not been vaccinated" without showing any link between the two!

I looked it up, though, and around a third of all staff have not been vaccinated yet - without knowing the reasons why, it doesn't actually tell anybody anything.

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20 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Sorry but that’s simply untrue. The Oxford AZ vaccine has not been approved for emergency use. What has happens is that governments across the world have thrown billions of Pounds Dollars etc in to the whole process of development and production. The pandemic resulted in the need to expedite the process but not bypass it. It’s fair to say, if the same approach was adopted for illnesses such as cancer, within 18 months we would be in a far better place with deaths from cancers. But cancer isn’t a pandemic and doesn’t bring the world to a halt. 

< error post - please ignore/delete >

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15 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Sorry but that’s simply untrue. The Oxford AZ vaccine has not been approved for emergency use. What has happens is that governments across the world have thrown billions of Pounds Dollars etc in to the whole process of development and production. The pandemic resulted in the need to expedite the process but not bypass it. It’s fair to say, if the same approach was adopted for illnesses such as cancer, within 18 months we would be in a far better place with deaths from cancers. But cancer isn’t a pandemic and doesn’t bring the world to a halt. 

Not sure about AZ status (maybe you can enlighten me re that one) but Pfizer and Moderna definitely have NOT finished the required stages and are only emergency use approved by the US FDA. 

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17 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Again I’m sorry to disagree. It takes a particular self belief to suggest you as an individual know more about this than world leading virologists and clinicians around the world. Not to mention the real world data that you can see for yourself. These vaccines work. The reduce the risk of severe illness and death and reduce your chances of contracting the virus.  

Some of what you say about a healthy lifestyle is true for all illnesses. Unfortunate a great many of people don’t have healthy lifestyles and they are falling sick with this virus. 
 

Get the jab ! 

Get the jab!  Trust me, it's for your own good... You remind me of Morgan Freeman with his toe-curling emotional blackmail message to convince people to 'get the jab'.

https://web.facebook.com/watch/?v=562139451374092

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2 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

Get the jab!  Trust me, it's for your own good... You remind me of Morgan Freeman with his toe-curling emotional blackmail message to convince people to 'get the jab'.

https://web.facebook.com/watch/?v=562139451374092

Up to you what you watch, but I'm fully innoculated.

If it transpires that more is needed, I'll be queuing with the rest.

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2 hours ago, Jeffpky said:

There is the confusion. You hold to the idea that what I do with my body some how is your concern.

There's no confusion on my part!

 

I couldn't care less what you do with your body as long as it doesn't affect me - but when it does, of course it's my concern!

 

If you pull a knife on me am I supposed to ignore it because it's your body that's holding it, not mine???

2 hours ago, Jeffpky said:

My choice not to get the vaccine is not the same as driving the wrong way down the road.

Well, please explain why?

 

Both are your choice, both affect me and others directly and indirectly, and the direct and indirect consequences are exactly the same!

 

An analogy could hardly get any closer!

2 hours ago, Jeffpky said:

Thus far there is just as much evidence to show COVID will spread despite the vaccines.

"spread", yes, but to a similar extent if herd immunity is reached? No.

You've made the claim, so show me any verifiable, peer reviewed, expert source that agrees with you.

Any at all ...

2 hours ago, Jeffpky said:

But my family and my life are none of your business.

Unless you make them my business! That's entirely up to you!

2 hours ago, Jeffpky said:

Finally, show me your research on vaccines and convenience me based on your evidence. As for what you commented on it seems you are just following the narrative without doing your homework.

What "research ... evidence ... and ... homework" would you like?

 

I'm not the one making any claims! You, BS, and mca are!!!

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1 minute ago, Poolie said:

Up to you what you watch, but I'm fully innoculated.

If it transpires that more is needed, I'll be queuing with the rest.

Good for you, and I will not stop you doing so.  But don't coerce me into doing same. 

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38 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Again I’m sorry to disagree. It takes a particular self belief to suggest you as an individual know more about this than world leading virologists and clinicians around the world. Not to mention the real world data that you can see for yourself. These vaccines work. The reduce the risk of severe illness and death and reduce your chances of contracting the virus.

The world's leading 'independent' scientists and doctors do know better and more.

The data IS there for all to see. Most of it is being suppressed, blocked and even altered. But in spite of this it can be found.

I can't agree about vaccines working. IMO none work. and this current crop are just the same. Constantly being promoted for Big Pharma (and others) to make billions of dollars for ???

Edited by snapdragon
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5 minutes ago, Stonker said:

... I couldn't care less what you do with your body as long as it doesn't affect me - but when it does, of course it's my concern!

If you pull a knife on me am I supposed to ignore it because it's your body that's holding it, not mine???

So my mere unvaccinated existence is a threat to you? 

When going in public I mask up and social distance, not that I believe in that total nonsense but I don't want to stress those who believe that it will protect them.  But I draw the line at vaccination, because I am surely NOT going to take the jab because of somebody else's irrational fears or twisted beliefs.

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