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Ukraine/Russian Conflict - General Discussion


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2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

1) It is not a war crime. It is an alleged war crime. 
2) Alleged = not proven. 

Why hasn’t Kyiv held these Ukrainian alleged murderers of POWs to account? 

hint: I gave you the answer already in my reply to EdwardV - use that and thrown in “alleged” and make a sentence.

It's OK fruit, we can all see you are dodging "my" question....

1. So these Ukrainian families are lying, and the BBC is lying..............🤣

2. Correct, so why should I comment on your alleged stuff....🥴

 

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3 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Probably not, but that is little comfort to them at this minute don’t you think? If you question they are truly volunteers, then what would you classify them as? 

All the borsch they can eat, 15 minutes of fame and no-one trying to shoot them. So many wins. 
What is a volunteer and what is a mercenary? Different rates of pay. I would classify them as socially challenged. Join a foreign army that has more than enough recruits as it is. Smart people! 

9 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

It’s hard to run a good PR program when you constantly do things to make yourself look bad. 

Well there is the whole war, fire sales at shopping malls etc to consider. 

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8 minutes ago, Fanta said:

1) It is not a war crime. It is an alleged war crime. 
2) Alleged = not proven. 

Why hasn’t Kyiv held these Ukrainian alleged murderers of POWs to account? 

hint: I gave you the answer already in my reply to EdwardV - use that and thrown in “alleged” and make a sentence.

Alleged or actual, which ever way you care to look at it, Russia is the catalyst here for without their intervention there wouldn't be a single war crime, alleged or otherwise. See how easy that was.

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2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

All the borsch they can eat, 15 minutes of fame and no-one trying to shoot them. So many wins. 
What is a volunteer and what is a mercenary? Different rates of pay. I would classify them as socially challenged. Join a foreign army that has more than enough recruits as it is. Smart people! 

Well there is the whole war, fire sales at shopping malls etc to consider. 

Yeh, take the p_ss out of the dead........Says it all.... 😬

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5 minutes ago, Fanta said:

All the borsch they can eat,

Isn’t that a war crime?

 

5 minutes ago, Fanta said:

What is a volunteer and what is a mercenary? Different rates of pay.

No doubt Russia knows the difference. 

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2 hours ago, Fanta said:

And who shall be seizing these assets? You and whose army? This “seizure” of assets is theft. Morally it is right to take them however legally in any independent court, no chance. The only place that this theft will be proven legal is in a kangaroo court. And you ignored why this never ending asset seizure is perilous - if the bill of damages gets high enough Russia may well decide to conquer Ukraine in its entirety and then demand it’s own assets back to rebuild Ukraine. Oops…. 

Nobody made that argument on behalf of Nazi Germany.
Fascist Russian War Crime Seizures. No Difference. Many Seizures already legally completed. 
Russia Quite Incapable of Conquering Ukraine. Astronomical Costs to Try.

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1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

Isn’t that a war crime?

No doubt Russia knows the difference. 

Anybody duly  “enlisted / commissioned/uniformed” , in the military of a legal nation state, like some captured Foreign POWs on whatever side, is a Legal Combatant😎

Volunteers/ Mercenaries/ Spies/ Illegal Combatants may fall outside that and their fate rests largely in hands of their captors who can define their status any way they choose, especially within lawless Klepto states.😩

What even those states CANNOT do, legally & publicly, is handover any POWs to unrecognized fake toytown “states” for clearly illegal “sentencing”.

That’s yet another actual self- evidenced War Crime, so not a smart move at all by Russia🤣 but then neither was the Clear Evidenced War Crime of Invasion🤣😩😡Surely & Legally isn’t  Every Subsequent Russian Negative War Act in Ukraine….. a Proven War Crime ? 😡

Prosecution Case Rests, m’lud 👍😞

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18 hours ago, Marble-eye said:

Gibberish. Blocked.

How sad that some individuals are so committed to single minded dogmatic perceptions they are incapable of considering more than one all consuming aspect of a complex situation.

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17 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Nobody made that argument on behalf of Nazi Germany.
Fascist Russian War Crime Seizures. No Difference. Many Seizures already legally completed. 
Russia Quite Incapable of Conquering Ukraine. Astronomical Costs to Try

Nazi Germany unconditionally surrendered and their leaders choices were largely limited to suicide or the rope. Comparing WWII to anything about this 4 month old dust up might appeal to the emotionally invested but not to most others. 
Legal seizures .. dubious. Selling them ….. seems almost impossible from a legal perspective and definitely not risk free on so many levels. 

https://www.lawfareblog.com/legal-challenges-presented-seizing-frozen-russian-assets

Conquering Ukraine? The longer this war continues then the greater the real risk of total defeat for UAF (demilitarization). Angry farmers and outraged politicians may be good for morale but there is no substitute for firepower. 

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52 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

What even those states CANNOT do, legally & publicly, is handover any POWs to unrecognized fake toytown “states” for clearly illegal “sentencing”.

Correct me if I am wrong here - Despite the headlines of Russian troops doing this and that, the consistent message from Moscow is that the LPR & DPR are “liberating” these territories. So it is the LPR & DPR that are capturing the foreigners and putting them into legal proceedings. So no handing over of anyone to anyone.  Hence Russia’s statements that the fate of the foreigners isn’t up to Russia. 

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5 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Nazi Germany unconditionally surrendered and their leaders choices were largely limited to suicide or the rope. Comparing WWII to anything about this 4 month old dust up might appeal to the emotionally invested but not to most others. 
Legal seizures .. dubious. Selling them ….. seems almost impossible from a legal perspective and definitely not risk free on so many levels. 

https://www.lawfareblog.com/legal-challenges-presented-seizing-frozen-russian-assets

Conquering Ukraine? The longer this war continues then the greater the real risk of total defeat for UAF (demilitarization). Angry farmers and outraged politicians may be good for morale but there is no substitute for firepower. 

Russian Fascist Aggression already being tackled by West / Ukraine by maximum effort at all levels. 😎👍

Legal War will no doubt be prosecuted in similar fashion to the Military Political Economic Campaigns.😎😌

This is no “dust up” and comparison to Sudetenland 1938 is Stark & Clear…. Just without the Appeasement part this time (Lesson Well Learned). 😩😠

West / Ukraine engaged in countering the Existential Threat to Civilization forever represented by an Unfree ( Nuclear Armed) Russia. 😩😡😠

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4 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Correct me if I am wrong here - Despite the headlines of Russian troops doing this and that, the consistent message from Moscow is that the LPR & DPR are “liberating” these territories. So it is the LPR & DPR that are capturing the foreigners and putting them into legal proceedings. So no handing over of anyone to anyone.  Hence Russia’s statements that the fate of the foreigners isn’t up to Russia. 

Makes no legal difference. Russia has already committed a War Crime by conducting / permitting such shananigans within its clear Control, contrary to subject international law. ICC or such body already pronounced that. 😡

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16 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Makes no legal difference. Russia has already committed a War Crime by conducting / permitting such shananigans within its clear Control, contrary to subject international law. ICC or such body already pronounced that. 😡

That stand will win you brownie points at the weekly “Weep for Ukraine” nights down at the local but a court of law is a different thing. Ask OK Simpson. 

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23 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Russian Fascist Aggression already being tackled by West / Ukraine by maximum effort at all levels. 😎👍

Legal War will no doubt be prosecuted in similar fashion 

Maximum effort? I’d hate to see a half assed effort from them. If the legal war is tackled as aggressively as the military war on aggression Ukraine will likely end up paying court costs. Put all the chest thumping aside and, imo, it has been a united, piss poor effort from the West to support Ukraine. No wonder President Volodymyr Oleksandrovych Zelenskyy seems like a whiner for weapons - he has a very valid point. The weapons promised to date don’t even replace Ukraine’s losses incurred to date. How can you fight a war while you are waiting for the ammo to arrive? 

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9 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Maximum effort? I’d hate to see a half assed effort from them. If the legal war is tackled as aggressively as the military war on aggression Ukraine will likely end up paying court costs. Put all the chest thumping aside and, imo, it has been a united, piss poor effort from the West to support Ukraine. No wonder President Volodymyr Oleksandrovych Zelenskyy seems like a whiner for weapons - he has a very valid point. The weapons promised to date don’t even replace Ukraine’s losses incurred to date. How can you fight a war while you are waiting for the ammo to arrive? 

But you would say that, seeing that you are obviously in the Bear's corner....🤫

 

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1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Maximum effort? I’d hate to see a half assed effort from them. If the legal war is tackled as aggressively as the military war on aggression Ukraine will likely end up paying court costs. Put all the chest thumping aside and, imo, it has been a united, piss poor effort from the West to support Ukraine. No wonder President Volodymyr Oleksandrovych Zelenskyy seems like a whiner for weapons - he has a very valid point. The weapons promised to date don’t even replace Ukraine’s losses incurred to date. How can you fight a war while you are waiting for the ammo to arrive? 

West hardly been “ piss poor” ; that would be Russias military performance

Not Ideal certainly in terms of front line equipment deployments or even Sanctions but Democracy always the “ least worst” form of govt. rather than “ most efficient”😞

hopefully sufficient HIMARS etc. arriving in time to defend Sloviansk & Kranmatorsk.😉

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1 hour ago, Fanta said:

That stand will win you brownie points at the weekly “Weep for Ukraine” nights down at the local but a court of law is a different thing. Ask OK Simpson. 

My “stand” is clearly with International Law. 

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2 hours ago, Fanta said:

Correct me if I am wrong here - Despite the headlines of Russian troops doing this and that, the consistent message from Moscow is that the LPR & DPR are “liberating” these territories. So it is the LPR & DPR that are capturing the foreigners and putting them into legal proceedings. So no handing over of anyone to anyone.  Hence Russia’s statements that the fate of the foreigners isn’t up to Russia. 

That’s a pretty shaky leg Russia is standing on. The LPR and DPR don’t legally exist, anything they do is consider being done by Russia. Even if you want to head down the rabbit hole. Those two exist only because Russia acknowledges them, supports, arms, and protects them. It’s not a hard to blame anything they do on Russia considering. 

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9 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

That’s a pretty shaky leg Russia is standing on. The LPR and DPR don’t legally exist, anything they do is consider being done by Russia. Even if you want to head down the rabbit hole. Those two exist only because Russia acknowledges them, supports, arms, and protects them. It’s not a hard to blame anything they do on Russia considering. 

Indeed but he just won’t have it ! he won’t review or accept unequivocal international law on this. Unworthy as he can often be reasonable.

https://www.justiceinfo.net/en/102044-ukraine-why-show-trial-british-pows-violates-geneva-conventions.html

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16 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

That’s a pretty shaky leg Russia is standing on. The LPR and DPR don’t legally exist, anything they do is consider being done by Russia. Even if you want to head down the rabbit hole. Those two exist only because Russia acknowledges them, supports, arms, and protects them. It’s not a hard to blame anything they do on Russia considering. 

I am not going down any hole. They are puppet states recognized by Russia, a UN member, and that bastion of human rights Syria. My point is that Russia can publicly  say “Not up to me. Up to you” to the DPR & LPR.

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31 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

My “stand” is clearly with International Law. 

And the article I linked to describing the difficulties in selling frozen assets is based on international law. The OJ comment was meant to show that even when we KNOW who is wrong and who is right it doesn’t determine the verdict. 

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15 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Indeed but he just won’t have it ! he won’t review or accept unequivocal international law on this. Unworthy as he can often be reasonable.

https://www.justiceinfo.net/en/102044-ukraine-why-show-trial-british-pows-violates-geneva-conventions.html

Perhaps a misunderstanding? I was saying that Russia didn’t hand over the prisoners because the DPR & LPR are portrayed by Russia as running the show. That is why they are not being tried in a  Russian court. The truth of the matter is largely irrelevant.
That is the first link you have posted arguing whether they should be treated as soldiers or mercenaries. imo, if captured in uniform  = a POW. Who pays the salary is irrelevant. Someone should also send that article to Ukraine for their own show trials of Russian soldiers. 

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2 hours ago, Fanta said:

The longer this war continues then the greater the real risk of total defeat for UAF (demilitarization). Angry farmers and outraged politicians may be good for morale but there is no substitute for firepower. 

Just as there is no substitute for manpower. I would argue the longer this war goes on the greater the risk of defeat for Russia. Being the attacker in a foreign country comes with a greater casualties count. As long as Putin refuses to mobilize, they will run out of soldiers first. Can’t win a war without soldiers. 

All Ukraine has to do is bleed out the Russia army, time will do the rest. 

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20 minutes ago, Fanta said:

My point is that Russia can publicly  say “Not up to me. Up to you” to the DPR & LPR.

Any everyone else looks at what they do and just see Russia. It’s not a winning strategy. 

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6 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Just as there is no substitute for manpower. I would argue the longer this war goes on the greater the risk of defeat for Russia. Being the attacker in a foreign country comes with a greater casualties count. As long as Putin refuses to mobilize, they will run out of soldiers first. Can’t win a war without soldiers. 

All Ukraine has to do is bleed out the Russia army, time will do the rest. 

Ukraine using Soviet tactics of endless bodies against the Russians? Hmmm… ULM - Ukrainian Lives Matter ! imo, this will all change if the Donbas Region falls. 

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