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On 7/2/2022 at 4:16 PM, vlad said:

Ukraine using laser-guided artillery and missiles to hit Russian forces they are not deliberately shelling neighborhoods. 

it is not true.  

Ukraine has been bombing Donetsk for several days.  From conventional MLRS, without any guidance.  Dozens of people died, including children.

 

But the top media won't tell you about it.  Or they will lie that it is Russia that is shelling a city that it controls.  Because you don't need the truth.  You need to impose the right opinion.

 

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On 7/2/2022 at 5:39 PM, palooka said:

But ??????

Do they work or are they victims of poor maintenance and scamming of maintenace funds to some Generals Swiss bank account? 

yes, let's check. and if we made a mistake, then this is not a problem. because we still have a lot of planets in stock.

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12 hours ago, dbrenn said:

Incidentally, and since you're also keen on history, tell me who sponsored Lenin and the Bolsheviks to defeat the White Army and precipitate the downfall of the Russian Empire, leading to the UUSR with all its cruelty, brutality and tyranny?

Unfortunately, you, too, have fallen into the stereotyped nets set for you by Euro-Atlantic media swindlers.  

If you are hinting at the sponsorship of the German Empire, then there were attempts, but Lenin resolutely rejected them.  There is no evidence to the contrary.  

The Bolsheviks won, because in the Russian Empire there was:

- the highest infant mortality in Europe

- mass starvation of peasants every 5 years

- ordinary people were in a state of disenfranchised slaves

- workers and peasants striking against this were simply massacred.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_massacre

Under the "tyranny" of the Soviets, the country was among the world leaders in all key indicators of the quality of life.

The real cause of the Revolution is the stupidity of the ruling class and its inability, even in WW1, to mobilize society and the economy.    

You, as a conservative (as I understand it), will not like this, but it is thanks to the Soviets that the golden billion today has an 8-hour working day, paid holidays, universal primary education and other social benefits.  

What will the current crisis, the beginning of the acute phase of which we are witnessing in Ukraine, lead to? Is it possible that stupid elites will give birth to a new Lenin with their impotence? How many millions or billions of lives will it cost?

 

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For what it's worth: 

 

Ukraine accused Russia of spreading false information after Moscow claimed it had destroyed two US-supplied High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems. “Russian propagandists are actively spreading false information about the alleged destruction of the American HIMARS artillery system,” Ukraine’s Joint Forces Task Force said in a statement Wednesday. “We emphasize that this message does not correspond to reality and is nothing but a fake.” Earlier Wednesday, the Russian Defense Ministry claimed it has destroyed the HIMARS Multiple Launch Rocket Systems during an air strike in the Donetsk region. “High-precision air-launched missiles destroyed two US-made HIMARS multiple launch rocket launchers and two of their ammunition depots,” the Russian defense ministry said in a briefing on Wednesday. The ministry released footage of the alleged strike, but CNN could not identify any HIMARS MLRS in the video. CNN could not independently verify either claim. 

Live updates: Russia's war in Ukraine (cnn.com)

The Russian quote of "high-precision air-launched missiles" would have been the tip off for me. That said, I'm not giving any credence to either claim at this point. 

 

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Ok, now I'm starting to doubt Russia took out a pair of HIMARS. This article includes a link to the video and their take: 

 

Screenshot from a Russian Ministry of Defense video claiming to show the destruction of two Ukrainian HIMARS batteries provided by the U.S. Via Twitter As 'proof' it distributed a video that shows a Russian aircraft firing what appears to be missiles at a target on the ground. The video then depicts a plume after an impact along a treed area seen through an infrared imager. Another infrared video shows missiles of some sort striking an area near an industrial park or farm followed by a plume. It then cuts to what appears to be drone video of the moment of impact in a different tree-lined area. However, that video does not appear to contain any proof that a HIMARS was hit,

It's also important to note that there are not even any secondary ignitions that one would expect from hitting a rocket launcher if it was loaded or munitions were nearby. Ukraine's General Staff, not surprisingly, called foul.

Ukraine Disputes Russia's Proofless Claim It Destroyed HIMARS Launchers (msn.com)

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. However it doesn't appear from watching the video there is any proof of the claim. That's probably the best we will know unless Ukraine wants to show all four next to each other ... firing at a Russian ammo dump. 

 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

For what it's worth: 

Ukraine accused Russia of spreading false information after Moscow claimed it had destroyed two US-supplied High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems. “Russian propagandists are actively spreading false information about the alleged destruction of the American HIMARS artillery system,” Ukraine’s Joint Forces Task Force said in a statement Wednesday. “We emphasize that this message does not correspond to reality and is nothing but a fake.” Earlier Wednesday, the Russian Defense Ministry claimed it has destroyed the HIMARS Multiple Launch Rocket Systems during an air strike in the Donetsk region. “High-precision air-launched missiles destroyed two US-made HIMARS multiple launch rocket launchers and two of their ammunition depots,” the Russian defense ministry said in a briefing on Wednesday. The ministry released footage of the alleged strike, but CNN could not identify any HIMARS MLRS in the video. CNN could not independently verify either claim. 

Live updates: Russia's war in Ukraine (cnn.com)

The Russian quote of "high-precision air-launched missiles" would have been the tip off for me. That said, I'm not giving any credence to either claim at this point. 

I'd say the same. Of course it would be a win for Russia, if it located and destroyed sophisticated Western weaponry. It would also be a win for Ukraine if such a thing didn't happen, and the claim was false.

Over on the other side of the propaganda mill, there are also claims that sophisticated Western weaponry is being offered for sale on the black market, such is the disintegration of Ukrainian supply lines. But we can't really lend credence to any of these stories. It's the word of one warring side against the other. 

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Sounds like the UAF are having some morale issues from active soldiers & conscripts. 

."Combat units from both sides are committed to intense combat in the Donbas and are likely experiencing variable morale," Britain's defence ministry said in its daily assessment of the war.

"Ukrainian forces have likely suffered desertions in recent weeks," the assessment said, but added that "Russian morale highly likely remains especially troubled."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-russia-june19-1.6493952

President Volodymyr Oleksandrovych Zelenskyy seems to be a bit miffed that his military are acting like the military and restricting movements of males to minimize draft dodging. imo, great PR man but to date not enough military experience to tell his army grandpas how to suck eggs. 

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky voiced frustration with military leaders after they added restrictions on the movement of military personnel without his input on Tuesday.”

https://www.newsweek.com/volodymyr-zelensky-ukraine-military-decision-personnel-movement-1721947

 

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11 hours ago, Fanta said:

Isn’t it already happening? The sanctions,  $320billion “frozen”, seizure of assets etc. Do you think the West are going to say “oh, the war is over and Russia won so we better give them their stuff back.” ? 

I hope they don't, use it to rebuild Ukraine.....🥳

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An interesting vid that more or less wraps up that Russians are executing folk, and yes you Russian supporters, it is from a reputable source....

I wonder what excuses you will come up with after watching it.........🥴

 

 

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1 hour ago, Fanta said:

imo, great PR man but to date not enough military experience to tell his army grandpas how to suck eggs.

True, but then he is a politician and not a soldier. The issue in question is about politics as much as readiness. It was Zelenskyy’s call and they should have consulted him if nothing else. He was right to be upset, even if the generals made the right call.

The Ukrainian army isn’t the only one with moral issues: 

Ukrainian intelligence said the military leadership of the Russian Federation was attempting to fight rampant alcohol abuse among its military, which leads to "numerous violations of discipline."

Cases of soldiers going absent without official leave during the service have become more frequent,” said Ukrainian intelligence. “Soldiers are at their firing positions in a state of intoxication. They violate gun use rules. There are car accidents involving servicemen in a state of intoxication.”

https://news.yahoo.com/invaders-assign-santa-claus-fight-133700063.html
 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

Unfortunately, you, too, have fallen into the stereotyped nets set for you by Euro-Atlantic media swindlers.  

If you are hinting at the sponsorship of the German Empire, then there were attempts, but Lenin resolutely rejected them.  There is no evidence to the contrary.  

The Bolsheviks won, because in the Russian Empire there was:

- the highest infant mortality in Europe

- mass starvation of peasants every 5 years

- ordinary people were in a state of disenfranchised slaves

- workers and peasants striking against this were simply massacred.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_massacre

Under the "tyranny" of the Soviets, the country was among the world leaders in all key indicators of the quality of life.

The real cause of the Revolution is the stupidity of the ruling class and its inability, even in WW1, to mobilize society and the economy.    

You, as a conservative (as I understand it), will not like this, but it is thanks to the Soviets that the golden billion today has an 8-hour working day, paid holidays, universal primary education and other social benefits.  

What will the current crisis, the beginning of the acute phase of which we are witnessing in Ukraine, lead to? Is it possible that stupid elites will give birth to a new Lenin with their impotence? How many millions or billions of lives will it cost?

Some interesting points you make. 

On the rise of Lenin: Well, the jury is still out on whether Lenin actually benefitted from the funding that was offered to him by Alexander Parvus, or 'Helphand'as he was known in revolutionary circles. Parvus was a German agent close to German ambassador Hans Freiherr von Wangenheim, who was keen to look for ways of destabilising Russia, an enemy of Germany in the First World War. Lenin, as you say, did not make any such relationship public, and may as you sat have rejected funding publicly himself, but its no secret that the Bolsheviks were supported by Germany, against their foe Russia, and there were various financial structures established in an apparent attempt to support them. Given the success of the Bolsheviks in gaining control, it's entirely conceivable that they were well funded. I very much disagree with Professior Mearsheimer's assertion here that Germany is losing its influence in Europe it had influence then, and it has it now. The EU is a German empire by another name.

On the formation of the USSR: I don't doubt that there was much poverty at the time the USSR was established, being that it was at the close of WW1. At that time, the local people's councils - the Soviets - were no doubt concerned for the fate of their people, and the Bolsheviks obviously made a very compelling argument that revolution, socialism and communism would free them from the shackles of their impoverished existence. The USSR, or Soviet Union, was formed by the Bosheviks under Lenin as a result. Would the people of the USSR have been better off otherwise? Who can tell?

On the tyranny of the USSR: In the early part of its existence, under Lenin, and much more so under Stalin, the USSR continued its revolution, which included (as socialist revolutions do) purges of those who were seen as dissenters. The purges included the Red Terror, show trials, summary execution and the like. The Cheka, which was the forerunner to the KGB, were particularly cruel and brutal in the way they carried out their work. Included here was the purges by Stalin of people in his own party, right up to his most senior lieutenants - including the the likes of Nikolai Yezhov (the bloody dwarf), who had been Stalin's executioner in chief in rooting out and accusing all and sundry of treacherty. Noteworthy here is the 1932-33 Holodomor famine, where Stalin starved to death between 3 to 5 million people in Ukraine for wanting more autonomy from the USSR. Stalin raised their grain export quotas, so not a morsel of food was available to eat and people were resorting to eating the corpses of the dead. Under Nikita Khrushchev, who succeeded Stain, the brutality was dialled down, but the USSR nevertheless remained a police state, where criticising the government was off limits.

This is the difficulty that I have with socialist revolutionaries - they come to power on promises to help the poor, but then they resort to murder on an enormous scale - sometimes though mismanagement of resources and sometimes through terror. Chairman Mao's Great Leap Forward. Chairman Mao's Cultural Revolution. Pol Pot's Year Zero. Stalin's Purges. The communist quest for their impossible Utopia is always approached through rivers of blood, and I often wonder why the Hammer and Sickle is not reviled in the way that the Swastika is. George Orwell's book 1984 comes to mind - communiusm is totalitarian by nature. Nobody can think or say anything that isn't in the party rule book, and if they do they're sent to the Gulag, tortured for confessions, and killed.

Leaving the USSR was not possible for most people - exit visas being expensive and hard to come by. The few people who did get to leave, were never allowed back and were stripped ofr their citizenship.

On the successes of the USSR: The USSR, through its focus on education and (almost contrary to the idea of communism) promoted academic excellence, and certainly made great advances in the sciences - to this day this is an area where Russians excel. The USSR also excelled in sport of extreme precision, such as gymnastics, frequently surpassing other nations in the area. People were guaranteed a job, and housing, so you can say that life was better for those people that the unemployed and homeless in the west.

Ultimately though, the USSR simply ran out of resources. Producers were told they could only sell at a certain price, so they didn't produce, meaning that there were shortages of everything - we've all seen the pictures of queuing. Corruption was rampant (it always is for any government that's been in power for too long) and bribes had to be paid for almost any public service.

Edited by dbrenn
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3 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

The Ukrainian army isn’t the only one with moral issues: 

This entire war proves that everything is bigger in Russia. 

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12 hours ago, Fanta said:

Isn’t it already happening? The sanctions,  $320billion “frozen”, seizure of assets etc. Do you think the West are going to say “oh, the war is over and Russia won so we better give them their stuff back.” ? 

Yes, Russia is not going to release any Reparations from inside Russia are they? Admission of Wrongdoing , can’t be compelled, so won’t happen of course. 😠

West / Ukraine will have to settle for seizing & liquidating all Putin- friendly Russian money & assets outside Russia. Then loan Ukraine the reconstruction balance for use, under tight western management. 😉

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1 hour ago, Transam said:

An interesting vid that more or less wraps up that Russians are executing folk, and yes you Russian supporters, it is from a reputable source....

I wonder what excuses you will come up with after watching it.........🥴

There can be no excuses for war crimes. And they are all allegations until proven such as the rape dungeons. 

The Ukrainians should show their commitment to holding alleged perpetrators of war crimes  to justice. They can start at home with the Georgians that cut the throats of multiple bound Russian POWs before finishing them with “mercy shots” or the Ukrainian militia kneecapping bound Russian soldiers or the Ukrainian soldier gouging out both the eyes of a Russian POW or the Ukrainian militia soldier inside a house pushing his knife through the eye and into the brain of a bound and screaming Russian POW killing him. These alleged war crimes, and more, are all on video in the public domain. Total Ukrainian arrests of these alleged war criminals = 0   
I wonder what excuses you will have for those alleged war crimes?  All is fair in love and war? 

btw: the video is from the BBC but you said it was from a reputable source….: 

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Just now, Fanta said:

There can be no excuses for war crimes. And they are all allegations until proven such as the rape dungeons. 

The Ukrainians should show their commitment to holding alleged perpetrators of war crimes  to justice. They can start at home with the Georgians that cut the throats of multiple bound Russian POWs before finishing them with “mercy shots” or the Ukrainian militia kneecapping bound Russian soldiers or the Ukrainian soldier gouging out both the eyes of a Russian POW or the Ukrainian militia soldier inside a house pushing his knife through the eye and into the brain of a bound and screaming Russian POW killing him. These alleged war crimes, and more, are all on video in the public domain. Total Ukrainian arrests of these alleged war criminals = 0   
I wonder what excuses you will have for those alleged war crimes?  All is fair in love and war? 

btw: the video is from the BBC but you said it was from a reputable source….: 

2 questions for you, try and reply, as you dodge my reliable source videos, strange that..

 

1. A nice essay, now tell us about these Russians executing these folk, not deviate as you usually do...

Go for it....

2. You are British, are you saying this BBC report is fake, false, whatever......?

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1 hour ago, oldschooler said:

West / Ukraine will have to settle for seizing & liquidating all Putin- friendly Russian money & assets outside Russia. Then loan Ukraine the reconstruction balance for use, under tight western management. 😉

And who shall be seizing these assets? You and whose army? This “seizure” of assets is theft. Morally it is right to take them however legally in any independent court, no chance. The only place that this theft will be proven legal is in a kangaroo court. And you ignored why this never ending asset seizure is perilous - if the bill of damages gets high enough Russia may well decide to conquer Ukraine in its entirety and then demand it’s own assets back to rebuild Ukraine. Oops…. 

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2 minutes ago, Transam said:

2 questions for you, try and reply, as you dodge my reliable source videos, strange that..

1. A nice essay, now tell us about these Russians executing these folk, not deviate as you usually do...

Go for it....

2. You are British, are you saying this BBC report is fake, false, whatever......?

1) Alleged war crime. Undoubtedly both sides are committing them. Innocent until proven guilty and while the court of public opinion is good enough for war time it is not after the shooting stops. Rape dungeons, Ghost of Kyiv… ring a bell ? 
2) if you cannot see that the BBC is biased in it’s war reporting due to it’s selective use of sources than that is not my problem.

A question for you - why hasn’t Kyiv held these Ukrainian alleged murderers of POWs to account? 

 

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3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

1) Alleged war crime. Undoubtedly both sides are committing them. Innocent until proven guilty and while the court of public opinion is good enough for war time it is not after the shooting stops. Rape dungeons, Ghost of Kyiv… ring a bell ? 
2) if you cannot see that the BBC is biased in it’s war reporting due to it’s selective use of sources than that is not my problem.

A question for you - why hasn’t Kyiv held these Ukrainian alleged murderers of POWs to account? 

So again you dodge my questions with your pro-Russian stance, but thank you for replying, you actually wrote what I hoped you would write, just to bolster stuff......😉

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12 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Innocent until proven guilty and while the court of public opinion is good enough for war time it is not after the shooting stops.

That is if the accused lasts that long before being shot. There are a few soldiers with a death sentence after being wrongly convicted of being mercenaries in Donbas right now. Arguably a war crime in and of itself. 

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13 minutes ago, Transam said:

So again you dodge my questions with your pro-Russian stance, but thank you for replying, you actually wrote what I hoped you would write, just to bolster stuff......😉

I answered your questions. And you avoided mine.

Why hasn’t Kyiv held these Ukrainian alleged murderers of POWs to account? 

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6 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

That is if the accused lasts that long before being shot. There are a few soldiers with a death sentence after being wrongly convicted of being mercenaries in Donbas right now. Arguably a war crime in and of itself. 

Shot by who? lol.. neither side is going to pull their soldiers off the front lines to face criminal charges when the problem might resolve itself. Apparently the leader of the Georgian mob of throat cutters copped it in Sieverdonetsk. Do you think the DPR/LPR will execute those “volunteers”? I don’t. Then again I thought Putin wouldn’t invade. 

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Just now, Fanta said:

1. I answered your questions. And you avoided mine.

2. Why hasn’t Kyiv held these Ukrainian alleged murderers of POWs to account? 

1. Once again you dodge my questions on a BBC VIDEO.........Great stuff....🤭

2. ALLEGED.  ? 

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1 minute ago, Fanta said:

DPR/LPR will execute those “volunteers”? I don’t. Then again I thought Putin wouldn’t invade

Probably not, but that is little comfort to them at this minute don’t you think? If you question they are truly volunteers, then what would you classify them as? 
 

It’s hard to run a good PR program when you constantly do things to make yourself look bad. 

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3 minutes ago, Transam said:

1. Once again you dodge my questions on a BBC VIDEO.........Great stuff....🤭

2. ALLEGED.  ? 

1) It is not a war crime. It is an alleged war crime. 
2) Alleged = not proven. 

Why hasn’t Kyiv held these Ukrainian alleged murderers of POWs to account? 

hint: I gave you the answer already in my reply to EdwardV - use that and thrown in “alleged” and make a sentence.

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I did a bit of sniffing about and looked at the site comrade Marx has been posting videos from. The site he used was called Press tv. This is the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting Company. MSM i dont think so. Isn't Iran chums with Russia?

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