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Ukraine/Russian Conflict - General Discussion


Smithydog
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7 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Lysychansk fell in a week so either the UAF were routed there or they have pulled back to another defensive stronghold aka a city.

If they were routed, Russia would have captured or killed thousands of UAF fighters. Nothing meant by that other than it's usually what happens.  It was a tactical retreat, same thing Russia did when withdrawing from Kyiv and Kharkiv. 

Mr McKenzie said: "[Ukraine] have quietly moved out of Lysychansk over the weekend. It wasn't broadcast that they were going to do that.

 
Fact is Russia did a great job getting behind Lysychansk and outflanking the UAF. Made the position untenable. And once again, the UAF slips out of a noose and lives to fight another day. 
 

 

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2 hours ago, dbrenn said:

I was merely stating that you seem to see Russia as the Devil incarnate, while Ukraine is a White Knight. The reality is much more nuanced than that. I've put forward various examples of why that is, which you and some others ignored and haven't rebutted.

Professional Mearsheimer cited Russophobia is a reason why the West hates Russia while ignoring a much more significant Chinese threat. He has a point. All our hysterical MSM does is attack Russia - perhaps they have Chinese financial interests. After all, China owns much of Western business these days. 

I wouldn't even go there saying that "I've put forward various examples of why that is, which you and some others ignored and haven't rebutted." You have been asked on many occasions to explain your cock and bull posts and they always go unanswered, so please stop playing the victim here. 

"I was merely stating that you seem to see Russia as the Devil incarnate, while Ukraine is a White Knight." 

And why would anybody look at Russia as anything else other than that, they are a band of moronic bully boys. They have shown their true colours by this murderous campaign they have set themselves on, so the answer to your question is when Russia is murdering Ukrainians at alarming rate and flattening cities like there is no tomorrow normal people would sympathise with the Ukrainians and not try to come up with posts that makes out Putin to be the Archangel Gabriel. It is called empathy and common sense, I guess some people have and some not. 

BTW not everybody shares your adoration of Professor Mearsheimer. 

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1 hour ago, Marble-eye said:

I wouldn't even go there saying that "I've put forward various examples of why that is, which you and some others ignored and haven't rebutted." You have been asked on many occasions to explain your cock and bull posts and they always go unanswered, so please stop playing the victim here. 

"I was merely stating that you seem to see Russia as the Devil incarnate, while Ukraine is a White Knight." 

And why would anybody look at Russia as anything else other than that, they are a band of moronic bully boys. They have shown their true colours by this murderous campaign they have set themselves on, so the answer to your question is when Russia is murdering Ukrainians at alarming rate and flattening cities like there is no tomorrow normal people would sympathise with the Ukrainians and not try to come up with posts that makes out Putin to be the Archangel Gabriel. It is called empathy and common sense, I guess some people have and some not. 

BTW not everybody shares your adoration of Professor Mearsheimer. 

There you go again, seeing things in black and white. I have no adoration for Professor Mearsheimer - I don't know of his work, but he did make some valid points in the interview that Shishi shared that have so far not been refuted. Smithydog did kindly send me a 160 page document on some of Meirsheimer's work - I'll try to find time to read it but I'm working this week and am caught up with quite a lot of things I have to do. I'm sure when I do read it, I'll have a nuanced view on Meirsheimer, like I do on everything else.

Oh dear, oh dear .... Russians are moronic bully boys. No shades of grey there either. 

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1 minute ago, dbrenn said:

There you go again, seeing things in black and white. I have no adoration for Professor Mearsheimer - I don't know of his work, but he did make some valid points in the interview that Shishi shared that have so far not been refuted. Smithydog did kindly send me a 160 page document on some of Meirsheimer's work - I'll try to find time to read it but I'm working this week and am caught up with quite a lot of things I have to do. I'm sure when I do read it, I'll have a nuanced view on Meirsheimer, like I do on everything else.

Oh dear, oh dear .... Russians are moronic bully boys. No shades of grey there either. 

I have read as much of Mearsheimers work as I can stomach, IMO when he is interviewed he never gives a precise answer, he always choosing to skirt around 'difficult' questions.

And FYI there is nothing nuanced about how the Russians invaded and started killing the Ukrainians whilst pummeling their cities to rubble. But on the internet you will always find somebody that agrees with your line of thought, some people might not call that nuanced but indeed gullible.

 

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15 hours ago, dbrenn said:

I've been calling for a ceasefire or truce from the start too, because Ukraine stands to being totally destroyed otherwise, and millions of people in Ukraine, Russia and the wider world might die if this thing escalates. It's so sad that all the people here calling for more and more war accuse the people actually calling for a truce of being pro-one-side-or-the-other, rather than accepting as sensible the good intention to end this terrible loss of life. 

Some people here seem to equating the two warring sides to their favourite football teams. It's all rather horrid and sad - as if war and killing is the only source of excitement in their empty and boring lives, so they don't want it to stop. Russia is bombing Ukraine. Ukraine bombed parts of Ukraine.

The funny part of all this is that I put an RT article on this thread showing the Ukrainian bombing of Lukhansk, and people here were trying to censor it out as being from an unreliable source. How predictable. I then put an article from CNN telling the exact same story, and people then pretended it didn't exist and dismissed it as irrelevant, even though they themselves post CNN material as fact. Stories that question the Holy Ukraine simply don't fit the narrative of the day. Has everyone lost their ability to think critically? It seems so.

Not your country, if we all thought like you the UK would have been in German hands.

The Ukraine isn't about you, chap....🥴

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14 hours ago, Outsider said:

Whataboutism !  How  dare you ! 😇

How do you get away  with your  childish level of trolling ?  Really ... serious  question?

Then PM staff chap, their decision, not yours....

But, answering the question would have been more useful instead of avoiding it..........🤒

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16 hours ago, dbrenn said:

You're missing the point.

Where are the journalists reporting from the Ukrainian side then, at tge front, like war correspondents used to do? By that I nean on the ground, in what's left of Ukraine.

You'd think that the Ukrainian side would be delighted to welcome Western press into every nook and cranny, to witness all of tge horrors that Russia is alleged to be perpetrating. But nothing. All we have from our hitherto trusted sources of news is quoting verbatim what the Ukrainian government says.

Rhe MSM that you freely quote here is really a Ukrainian government mouthpiece, as biased as the Russian side because there's a war on. Try as you will, you won't get away from that.

Are you denying what the MSM was reporting in 2014, when they were on the ground, and if so, why? And please don't echo the simple minds here in saying that the ramp up to this war is "past scraps".

Actually you are the one who asked this. "How many BBC journalists are in Russia at the moment". I responded and now again you simply seek to deflect the facts after you made a statement. Remember those words were what you wrote and show a clear intent to your post. 

(Tip...proof reading your post (especially the one quoted above) may help readability!)

Just so you know, I don't "echo". What I write is my opinion and you should be careful for what you wish for.

After all, if I was to write further about the origins it would take me far beyond the multiple events in 2014 and Russia's actions would not come out at all supportive of their current arguments. Here is a teaser for you to look up. How was the USSR formed and what was the role of Ukraine in that and its status at the time?

2014 is a "convenient time" for Russia seeking to avoid the past, including comments made by President Putin himself prior to then that reflect his true position and designs on Ukraine. 

It is actually laughable to see a suggestion that the circumstances in Ukraine allow for war correspondents of the type in the past. Modern weaponry and the indiscriminate bombing of the Russians using their "scorched earth" tactics has severely inhibited the ability of journalists to embed in forces and report from the frontline.

But then we do also have modern technology to support them. However, if you so feel a gap exists, why not go yourself and report back to The Thaiger from the frontline? 😉

 

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11 hours ago, EdwardV said:

While correct, it also doesn't take into account factors that no longer exist. Things like the fact world consumption is no longer expanding, it's already peaked. It's going to be increasingly difficult to export your way into an economic giant anymore. In addition, Ukraine is surrounded by export economies, that wasn't the case with Japan and South Korea. Last and most important, both Japan and South Korea used their demographic dividend to build their economy. It wasn't just a case of the West (read USA) transforming their economies. Part yes, and part no. Ukraine doesn't have an demographic dividend to build upon, their population had already aged past that point. The war has now imploded it. The West can help rebuild Ukraine (if Putin stops but he won't), but they will never have a first world economy. They just won't have the demographics to do so.     

OK,  Ukraine won’t be an economic giant but it can be improved from it’s current global position.  $750 billion can’t be wrong. Ukraine is still surrounding by the starving masses of Africa and  other 3rd world countries so there is plenty of room for them to build upon their current exports. Ukraine seemingly has a choice to either populate or perish. Banning condom factories and introducing an exorbitant TV tax might help but probably not enough. I am sure India could spare a mere 20 million citizens to setup corner shops in post war Ukraine. Win win! 

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13 hours ago, Fanta said:

Japan is a good example of an economy transformed by the West into an economic giant after a war. South Korea also. 

Wrong thread chap.......🤔

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4 hours ago, dbrenn said:

You have a habit of slurring members who disagree with your points. You can do much better than that. Try to engage in the debate politely, respecting others rather than resorting to rudeness and infantile name calling. 

Pot/kettle...........🥴

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3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

&750 billion can’t be wrong. Ukraine is still surrounding by the starving masses of Africa and  other 3rd world countries so there is plenty of room for them to build upon their current exports. Ukraine seemingly has a choice to either populate or perish.

If I had to lay money on the line, it’s parish. Of course it’s not that black and white, but it’s not likely to be good. They have good farmland and it’s some oil and minerals. However their best land for mining, oil and natural gas are now in possession of Russia. They also lost a portion of that farmland too. The other problem is of course the population loss. It was already in decline prior to the war. A third of the population is already refugees, a huge number by historical standards (most internally). It’s expected only half of those who left Ukraine will return. And there is the issue of those women and children who are now in Russia. The exact demographic needed to even try to rebuild their population. How long will it take to rebuild the country? People won’t come back if there is no place to live or no place to work. There is more than one reason to grind the cities and towns to dust. It’s a page out of a very old playbook. 

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Members,

Some standards are again starting to slip and I refer members to the opening post of this thread which contains the expectations of members posting in this thread.

Please review it and abide by what it says. Sadly, some members have already received sanctions for not doing so.

Thanks

Moderator

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6 hours ago, dbrenn said:

I was merely stating that you seem to see Russia as the Devil incarnate, while Ukraine is a White Knight. The reality is much more nuanced than that. I've put forward various examples of why that is, which you and some others ignored and haven't rebutted.

Professional Mearsheimer cited Russophobia is a reason why the West hates Russia while ignoring a much more significant Chinese threat. He has a point. All our hysterical MSM does is attack Russia - perhaps they have Chinese financial interests. After all, China owns much of Western business these days. 

Phobia means irrational fear. Nothing Irrational about Fearing Evil on an Evidenced Existential Threat Level.

Russia China Iran NKorea Islam etc. 

silly made up “ phobia” words for the unreasonable apologists defending something clearly rotten & very bad. 

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1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

If I had to lay money on the line, it’s parish. Of course it’s not that black and white, but it’s not likely to be good. They have good farmland and it’s some oil and minerals. However their best land for mining, oil and natural gas are now in possession of Russia. They also lost a portion of that farmland too. The other problem is of course the population loss. It was already in decline prior to the war. A third of the population is already refugees, a huge number by historical standards (most internally). It’s expected only half of those who left Ukraine will return. And there is the issue of those women and children who are now in Russia. The exact demographic needed to even try to rebuild their population. How long will it take to rebuild the country? People won’t come back if there is no place to live or no place to work. There is more than one reason to grind the cities and towns to dust. It’s a page out of a very old playbook. 

Indeed. WRECK & PARTITION Ukraine. Mearscheimer Right on these parts of Putins View / Plan. 😩

If Russia cant, in descending order, Own Control Neutralize Demilitarize the Whole Ukraine (tried / failed) then Russia WILL most certainly :-

WRECK Ukraine, concurrent with PARTITION by taking its Ethnic Russian Industrial Heartlands Both these aims have clearly Succeeded Irreversibly.😡

Ukraine reduced to a smaller ukrainian speaking nation, pro- west / anti-Russian, which will in ten years, join EU & even NATO. Such Partition should of course been done in 1991 pre- independence.

Immense Cost to Russia who are now reduced,in every way, to a giant pariah state like NKorea, with huge East Ukraine rebuilding costs, reduced revenues & declining population.

Forever Reliant on China & India trade.ASSUMING EU Energy Payments eventually phased out.
All Survivable.

Zero Threat to the enlarged NATO (all along NATO / Ukraine Plan).

If only Russia could then somehow become FREE and Ally with West & Pacific Allies against CCP China ( and Iran / NK). 

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Ukraine will receive ten self-propelled artillery systems and loitering munitions (suicide drones) from the United Kingdom in the coming weeks. This is said in a press release issued by the office of the head of the British government following a phone conversation between UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson and President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky.

https://www.ukrinform.net/amp/rubric-ato/3522718-ukraine-to-receive-selfpropelled-artillery-systems-loitering-munitions-from-britain.html 

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19 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Ukraine will receive ten self-propelled artillery systems and loitering munitions (suicide drones) from the United Kingdom in the coming weeks. This is said in a press release issued by the office of the head of the British government following a phone conversation between UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson and President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky.

https://www.ukrinform.net/amp/rubric-ato/3522718-ukraine-to-receive-selfpropelled-artillery-systems-loitering-munitions-from-britain.html 

Cool idea and probably cheaper then those multimillion Turkish drones. I hope they send them via FedEx before the Russian switch to defense mode.

Eurovision 2023… lol 

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Representatives of the breakaway Donetsk People's Republic have notified two shipping companies that it had seized their vessels in the Ukrainian city of Mariupol, Reuters reported Tuesday. The reported seizure of the ships is the first of its kind and comes nearly two months after Russia took full control of Mariupol and is now seeking to establish dominance in Ukraine's eastern Donbas region.

The Donetsk People's Republic, a separatist region in eastern Ukraine recognized by Moscow, sent each company a letter, obtained by Reuters, stating that the ships had been subject to "forcible appropriation of movable property with forced conversion into state property," offering no compensation.

https://www.newsweek.com/russian-backed-separatists-seize-non-ukrainian-ships-black-sea-report-1722017?amp=1

To be honest I don’t know what to think about that. Legal, illegal, good or bad???? Interesting none the less. 

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7 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Representatives of the breakaway Donetsk People's Republic have notified two shipping companies that it had seized their vessels in the Ukrainian city of Mariupol, Reuters reported Tuesday. The reported seizure of the ships is the first of its kind and comes nearly two months after Russia took full control of Mariupol and is now seeking to establish dominance in Ukraine's eastern Donbas region.

The Donetsk People's Republic, a separatist region in eastern Ukraine recognized by Moscow, sent each company a letter, obtained by Reuters, stating that the ships had been subject to "forcible appropriation of movable property with forced conversion into state property," offering no compensation.

https://www.newsweek.com/russian-backed-separatists-seize-non-ukrainian-ships-black-sea-report-1722017?amp=1

To be honest I don’t know what to think about that. Legal, illegal, good or bad???? Interesting none the less. 

One of the ships seems to be owned by a Ukrainian company - Fetida Maritime. The other by Smarta Shipping who have an office in Vienna. Who knows who really owns these boats. Very considerate of the DPR to send a letter to the owners so they don’t have to worry about where their boats have gone. Much like the stolen Ukrainian grain I cannot see what the fuss is. These people are trying to kill you! Compared to that nicking a couple of boats and 7,000 tons of grain seems like small potatoes. 

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3 hours ago, Transam said:

Not your country, if we all thought like you the UK would have been in German hands.

The Ukraine isn't about you, chap....🥴

Chap .... compare:

1) WW2 (in our view) - the Nazis (our sworn enemy) are advancing westwards and are conquering the whole of Europe. They are at our doorstep. They have to be stopped

2) Ukraine (in Russia's view) - NATO (our sworn enemy) is expanding eastwards and are conquering the whole of Europe. They are at our doorstep. They have to be stopped. 

And ..... the Ukraine isn't about you either.

🤔🤩😛🤣

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4 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

2) Ukraine (in Russia's view) - NATO (our sworn enemy) is expanding eastwards and are conquering the whole of Europe. They are at our doorstep. They have to be stopped. 

That’s where the Finland/Sweden irony comes into play. Unintended consequences, they will bite you on the azz every time. 😵🤣

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8 hours ago, astro said:

You got that right. 🤣

You’ve missed the clear analogy rightly comparing Putin to Hitler. And again demonstrated your humorless vindictive disposition😞😉

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20 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Chap .... compare:

1) WW2 (in our view) - the Nazis (our sworn enemy) are advancing westwards and are conquering the whole of Europe. They are at our doorstep. They have to be stopped

2) Ukraine (in Russia's view) - NATO (our sworn enemy) is expanding eastwards and are conquering the whole of Europe. They are at our doorstep. They have to be stopped. 

And ..... the Ukraine isn't about you either.

🤔🤩😛🤣

Completely False Analogy. 
nato represents free democracies & isn't  “advancing”.

Hitler & Putin both Fascist Aggressor Invaders. NATO clearly no invasion threat to a nuclear- armed Russia. NATO Undermining & provoking Russia ? Certainly & successfully yes, by political maneuvers ( that’s their defensive job),  not unjustified physical assault. 

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59 minutes ago, Fanta said:

One of the ships seems to be owned by a Ukrainian company - Fetida Maritime. The other by Smarta Shipping who have an office in Vienna. Who knows who really owns these boats. Very considerate of the DPR to send a letter to the owners so they don’t have to worry about where their boats have gone. Much like the stolen Ukrainian grain I cannot see what the fuss is. These people are trying to kill you! Compared to that nicking a couple of boats and 7,000 tons of grain seems like small potatoes. 

Just demonstrates the thieving nature of Russians & the Russian Klepto - terror state; they just can’t help themselves ….🤣😠 

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22 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

I agree that that the situation now is as you describe. But bear in mind that China's economy will soon be larger than that of the US. How long do you think the status quo will endure the US continues to treat the dollar political tool, and trust in it is lost? Changes could never happen, or could be measured in decades, or less if the US keeps attaching political affiliations to the dollar, undermining global confidence and trust in it. 

History is littered with Empires that thought they were too big and powerful to fall. The tragedy is that the US isn't seeing this, preferring instead to wage pointless wars around the world that it can never win, all in the name of expanding its (increasingly ridiculed) liberal cultural footprint.  

Superficial naive schoolboy politics 😞

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Smithydog said:

Actually you are the one who asked this. "How many BBC journalists are in Russia at the moment". I responded and now again you simply seek to deflect the facts after you made a statement. Remember those words were what you wrote and show a clear intent to your post. 

(Tip...proof reading your post (especially the one quoted above) may help readability!)

Just so you know, I don't "echo". What I write is my opinion and you should be careful for what you wish for.

After all, if I was to write further about the origins it would take me far beyond the multiple events in 2014 and Russia's actions would not come out at all supportive of their current arguments. Here is a teaser for you to look up. How was the USSR formed and what was the role of Ukraine in that and its status at the time?

2014 is a "convenient time" for Russia seeking to avoid the past, including comments made by President Putin himself prior to then that reflect his true position and designs on Ukraine. 

It is actually laughable to see a suggestion that the circumstances in Ukraine allow for war correspondents of the type in the past. Modern weaponry and the indiscriminate bombing of the Russians using their "scorched earth" tactics has severely inhibited the ability of journalists to embed in forces and report from the frontline.

But then we do also have modern technology to support them. However, if you so feel a gap exists, why not go yourself and report back to The Thaiger from the frontline? 😉

Hmmmm - where to start? I'll list for the sake of brevity:

1) Proof reading - yes, I rush sometimes to cram posting in between business meetings, or type them on my mobile. But you're right.

2) You (and I was referring to Thaiger News) here does echo the MSM, quoting directly from it

3) We all know that there are no journalists on the Russian side - we're their enemy. In the past though, we've all seen journalists on the friendly side, even in firefights - not in this case though. Have you thought why that might be? Why is nobody reporting from the Ukrainian side, leaving our news outlets to report verbatim from the Ukrainian government. No, I don't accept that it's too dangerous because all warzones are dangerous. 

 

4) On historical context, agreed that the USSR was formed following the Bolshevik revolution, at the conclusion of the Russian civil war. Incidentally, and since you're also keen on history, tell me who sponsored Lenin and the Bolsheviks to defeat the White Army and precipitate the downfall of the Russian Empire, leading to the UUSR with all its cruelty, brutality and tyranny? The fact is that Russia renounced communism in 1991, and ceded thousands of square kilometres in doing so, including Ukraine. Of course, here in the West, we don't condemn communism anymore, despite its warped ideology leaving millions dead from Russia, to China and Cambodia. Communism fell, Russia ceded vast tracks of terrain. Did we try to make friends with them and rehabilitate them in the same way we rehabilitated the Germans after the fall of the Nazis, making them our friends. No, we didn't. Why not, I ask you? 

NATO abused Russia's weakness and and vastly overreached, inviting Ukraine to join it in 2006. Then, in 2014, the US sponsored a coup, which overthrew a democratically elected government in Ukraine, leading in turn to the current cycle of violence. We could probably go all the way back to Genghis Khan, but I'm talking about the current cycle of war, and who instigated it.

What's your view on the Ukrainian air rad on Lukhansk? Stop wriggling and condemn it in equal measure as the Russian side now, or I'll say that you have a double standard. 

5) On modern weaponry and the indiscriminate bombing of the Russians using their "scorched earth" tactics has severely inhibited the ability of journalists to embed in forces and report from the frontline - again, they could be embedded into the Ukrainian side. Why aren't they? I'm saying that journalism as a profession is dying a death - they all sit in offices, trawling unverified twaddle from social networking and Ukrainian government websites.

5) Too your flippant close on why I don't go over there, I've never pretended to be a journalist, and I'm rather unfit for a job like that  that requires physical agility. That said, if you're offering me a job, PM me and I'll consider it 😃 - anything would be a big step up from echoing everything the Ukrainian government says.

Edited by dbrenn
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