Ukraine/Russian Conflict - General Discussion

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Japan is a good example of an economy transformed by the West into an economic giant after a war. South Korea also. 

While correct, it also doesn't take into account factors that no longer exist. Things like the fact world consumption is no longer expanding, it's already peaked. It's going to be increasingly difficult to export your way into an economic giant anymore. In addition, Ukraine is surrounded by export economies, that wasn't the case with Japan and South Korea. Last and most important, both Japan and South Korea used their demographic dividend to build their economy. It wasn't just a case of the West (read USA) transforming their economies. Part yes, and part no. Ukraine doesn't have an demographic dividend to build upon, their population had already aged past that point. The war has now imploded it. The West can help rebuild Ukraine (if Putin stops but he won't), but they will never have a first world economy. They just won't have the demographics to do so.     

[EdwardV]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

Anything less than a “glorious” death in battle is appeasement to you. Blindly follow your “ war, war and more war” mantra and most of Ukraine will make the moon look good.

You beat this drum a lot, and I do understand the rational behind it. Yes lets stop the killing. However there is little to no reason to believe Russia has any intention to stop this war unless forced to do so (by exhaustion if nothing else). There is no reason to believe Russia would negotiate fairly, or be willing to cut a deal which they wouldn't later violate (Budapest memorandum anyone?). History is filled with examples of bad peace deals just leading to bigger wars later. Find a good one and sign me up. Until then, nothing wrong with bleeding out the Russian army further.  

[astro]

12 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Coherently Supporting free democratic nations & condemning tyranny in all its evil forms is clearly antagonistic to the terminally deluded,  perhaps programmed by their Marxist lecturers … a common ailment unfortunately these days

Who you talking to? Certainly doesn't relate to anything I have posted.

12 hours ago, oldschooler said:

You have no facts & no case….

Again: NATO does not care about your comments on this forum - fact.

12 hours ago, oldschooler said:

just blinkered anti- west, pro- tyranny views … so your only recourse is the actually “vile” ad hominem ( you will need to look that up) tactic

That bears no relation to any of my posts. Are you drunk?

I am not anti-West, I am anti-bigotry in all its forms.

12 hours ago, oldschooler said:

no wonder your credibility here is rock bottom, lower than even KarlMarx or BrenGunwhich takes some doing !

Unsubstantiated ad hominem, exactly what you accuse others of.

[vlad]

Am I missing something here ?? Some appeasers here are looking at sitting around a table with a compulsive liar i.e. Mr. Putin. Is this the same president who said we will not invade Ukraine and told us all that he does not Hit Civilian Targets. Are the apartment blocks we have seen blown over by the wind? and finally did he not say we did not launch a cruise missile into a packed Shopping center. Tell me he did not tell porkies.

[vlad]

11 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

You beat this drum a lot, and I do understand the rational behind it. Yes lets stop the killing. However there is little to no reason to believe Russia has any intention to stop this war unless forced to do so (by exhaustion if nothing else). There is no reason to believe Russia would negotiate fairly, or be willing to cut a deal which they wouldn't later violate (Budapest memorandum anyone?). History is filled with examples of bad peace deals just leading to bigger wars later. Find a good one and sign me up. Until then, nothing wrong with bleeding out the Russian army further.  

Err the Falklands war.40 years of peace since we defeated Argentina.

 

[astro]

16 hours ago, vlad said:

Its fair in war astro only the appeasers on here will shout it down and cry foul. Most will agree  " Do unto them what they did to You " in other words if Russia targeted a shopping center full of Ukrainian shoppers they  have the right to Target a Russian Shopping center.

That's Old Testament.

No, that's not "fair in war", at least not if one is a signee of the Geneva Convention and claims the high ground.

[vlad]

3 minutes ago, astro said:

That's Old Testament.

No, that's not "fair in war", at least not if one is a signee of the Geneva Convention and claims the high ground.

Who are you referring to as being a signed up member signed-up to the Geneva Convention?

[astro]

49 minutes ago, vlad said:

Who are you referring to as being a signed up member signed-up to the Geneva Convention?

Ukraine.

They also want to join the EU, committing war crimes by targeting crowded shopping centres is a no go for any civilised nation.

[EdwardV]

31 minutes ago, astro said:

Ukraine.

They also want to join the EU, committing war crimes by targeting crowded shopping centres is a no go for any civilised nation.

Shopping centers? You mean like a mall? 

[astro]

Ask vlad.

[EdwardV]

4 minutes ago, astro said:

Ask vlad.

You made the comment: "They also want to join the EU, committing war crimes by targeting crowded shopping centres is a no go for any civilised nation."

I'm assuming you mean Ukraine can't be aiming missiles at shopping centers if they want to become a member of the EU and/or claim the moral high ground. Right? If so, I agree. However they are not being accused of that unlike Russia (hence the mall reference). Never mind the whole Odesa thing where they are not even pretending to have aimed at a military target. I get trying to point out the hypocrisy, it's just hard to do when taking the side of a country that started the war.  

[oldschooler]

2 hours ago, astro said:

Who you talking to? Certainly doesn't relate to anything I have posted.

Again: NATO does not care about your comments on this forum - fact.

That bears no relation to any of my posts. Are you drunk?

I am not anti-West, I am anti-bigotry in all its forms.

Unsubstantiated ad hominem, exactly what you accuse others of.

No sense or value here. Dismissed.

[oldschooler]

5 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

The sad truth is they did at the start and it didnt work.

The same happened with Putin when he stole the Crimea. The Ukrainians wrote it off as an appeasement. 

When Russian backed terrorists stole some of the Donbass the Ukrainians wrote it off as an appeasement.

All this did was embolden Putin to think he can get more. So now we have a war in the Ukraine.

Still the Putin apologists on here claim all Putin wants is peace.

A little piece of Georgia and a little piece of the Ukraine.

Mel Brooks “ Springtime for Hitler”

” A piece of Po - land a piece of France   “

“ We’re going to have a Party, a Nazi Party !”.

 

[astro]

3 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Mel Brooks “ Springtime for Hitler”

” A piece of Po - land a piece of France   “

“ We’re going to have a Party, a Nazi Party !”.

 

3 hours ago, oldschooler said:

No sense or value here. Dismissed.

You got that right.

[astro]

4 hours ago, EdwardV said:

You made the comment: "They also want to join the EU, committing war crimes by targeting crowded shopping centres is a no go for any civilised nation."

I'm assuming you mean Ukraine can't be aiming missiles at shopping centers if they want to become a member of the EU and/or claim the moral high ground. Right? If so, I agree. However they are not being accused of that unlike Russia (hence the mall reference). Never mind the whole Odesa thing where they are not even pretending to have aimed at a military target. I get trying to point out the hypocrisy, it's just hard to do when taking the side of a country that started the war.  

Not accusing Ukraine.

I replied to vlad's suggestion to target a Russian "shopping center" in retaliation.

 

This kind of basic, instinctual reaction is what leads to a downwards spiral of dehumanising and atrocities - the very issue the Geneva Conventions were initiated to prevent, it also stands against the values of civilised nations.

Unfortunately, some here disagree and advocate, applaud and cheer warcrimes against supposed enemies (like shoppers in Russia).

Anybody who dares to disagree must be a "Putin fan", "anti-west" or similar nonsensical drivel.

[dbrenn]

8 hours ago, Marble-eye said:

"Try not to look at things in black and white."

And you try and stop patronising other posters, you did it on an earlier post by saying, "you have missed the point"

You are coming across as someone with a superiority complex, try talking to the rest of us as if we were sat down next to one another, you know, decently.

I was merely stating that you seem to see Russia as the Devil incarnate, while Ukraine is a White Knight. The reality is much more nuanced than that. I've put forward various examples of why that is, which you and some others ignored and haven't rebutted.

Professional Mearsheimer cited Russophobia is a reason why the West hates Russia while ignoring a much more significant Chinese threat. He has a point. All our hysterical MSM does is attack Russia - perhaps they have Chinese financial interests. After all, China owns much of Western business these days. 

[dbrenn]

6 hours ago, vlad said:

Some appeasers here

You have a habit of slurring members who disagree with your points. You can do much better than that. Try to engage in the debate politely, respecting others rather than resorting to rudeness and infantile name calling. 

Edited July 5 by dbrenn

[dbrenn]

8 hours ago, Fanta said:

Japan is a good example of an economy transformed by the West into an economic giant after a war. South Korea also. 

Ditto Germany. 

[vlad]

Well Well Well just been watching the BBC'S News at 10 a reporter with a film crew returned to Bucha to witness a war crime unseen till today. I tried to show the video but I could not put the link-up. However, it was an interview with a survivor from a Russian group of Soldiers who rounded up 6 members of the Ukrainian Territorial Army in a small village Nr Bucha. Basically, the 6 men were hiding in a house but the Russians found them marched them behind a building out of the way from prying eyes tortured them tied their hands then shot them. The first man was shot through his side but the bullet exited it he fained death while the other 5 were executed. I'm sure a member can post the video captured on film and the body's shown clearly in the footage the report was by the BBC you need to watch it.

[astro]

9 minutes ago, vlad said:

you need to watch it.

Why should I?

Haven't you posted enough clips of people being shot and things blown up yet?

[EdwardV]

25 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Professional Mearsheimer cited Russophobia is a reason why the West hates Russia while ignoring a much more significant Chinese threat. He has a point. All our hysterical MSM does is attack Russia - perhaps they have Chinese financial interests. After all, China owns much of Western business these days. 

Actually was agreeing with you up to this point. Not because you mention Mearsheirmer, but because the West isn't ignoring China in the least. You only have to listen to the wolfwarriors howl repeatedly each and every day to know that is true. They are still Washington's #1 concern and target, to Ukraine's slight displeasure. Even NATO has focused on them to a much firmer degree (again howls of outrage). As for Chinese ownership of Western business, I would argue it's pretty much meaningless. They don't really own that much, and they can't do much with them (except make money, maybe). As it is, they are starting to sell them off at an furious pace. See the ownership was never about getting control, it was always about getting money (assets) out of China. Now that Germany has threaten to nationalize a Russian oil refinery, they realize in any war with Taiwan, those foreign assets/companies are worthless. Time to bring the money back home while they can type thing. After all, if conservative non-confrontational German can snatch foreign assets. The American's wouldn't even hesitate.    

[dbrenn]

36 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Actually was agreeing with you up to this point. Not because you mention Mearsheirmer, but because the West isn't ignoring China in the least. You only have to listen to the wolfwarriors howl repeatedly each and every day to know that is true. They are still Washington's #1 concern and target, to Ukraine's slight displeasure. Even NATO has focused on them to a much firmer degree (again howls of outrage). As for Chinese ownership of Western business, I would argue it's pretty much meaningless. They don't really own that much, and they can't do much with them (except make money, maybe). As it is, they are starting to sell them off at an furious pace. See the ownership was never about getting control, it was always about getting money (assets) out of China. Now that Germany has threaten to nationalize a Russian oil refinery, they realize in any war with Taiwan, those foreign assets/companies are worthless. Time to bring the money back home while they can type thing. After all, if conservative non-confrontational German can snatch foreign assets. The American's wouldn't even hesitate.    

We're a tad off topic here, but any double standard is still relevant imo. I agree that the volume on China has notched up a little, but China's military plus financial muscle is a bigger threat than the USSR's military threat alone ever was, assuming articles like these are true:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/how-much-of-the-united-states-does-china-really-own.amp

https://www.lovemoney.com/gallerylist/60924/famous-western-brands-that-are-now-chineseowned

Now, why do we never see a Hollywood movie criticising China?

Perhaps the US is eyeing up Chinese assets with confiscation in mind, just like those Russian assets, but the fate of the dollar as the reserve currency now hangs in the balance - countries are fearful that they'll lose all their dollar related assets if they upset the US politically, and may turn to other currencies.... like the Yuan. 

The US wouldn't have a leg to stand on if China invaded Taiwan either. China has missiles that can punch holes in aircraft carriers. 

Edited July 5 by dbrenn

[vlad]

52 minutes ago, astro said:

Why should I?

Haven't you posted enough clips of people being shot and things blown up yet?

Different when there committing war crimes easy answer don't watch it.

[EdwardV]

42 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

but the fate of the dollar as the reserve currency now hangs in the balance - countries are fearful that they'll lose all their dollar related assets if they upset the US politically, and may turn to other currencies.... like the Yuan. 

Again was agreeing up to this point. There are no competitors to the US Dollar, currently it's only getting stronger. You need four things to be the reserve currency. First you can't manipulate the value, China fails on this point. Second your currency has to float free and fluctuations can't effect the general population. Again not the Yuan, in fact the Yuan is pegged to the dollar! Next the currency has to be in a large enough volume that can lubricate the entire world. The Yuan would easily qualify on the volume as it dwarfs the dollar in that regard. Only problem is 90% of all Yuan in locked away inside China, and half of the balance is in Hong Kong. Last the currency has to be traded world wide. China strictly controls the Yuan (see above and it's getting worse). 

I do agree certain countries would love a workable option (Russia, China, Iran, etc. come to mind). However it's not happening. If anything the war has made it worse, hence why the dollar is climbing in value. The so called Ruble to Rupee exchange for oil is a perfect example. The idea fell apart because India didn't want Rubles (can use them after getting them), and Russia didn't want Rupees (they wanted Dollars or Euros, which is ironically what India is using).  

[Fanta]

 

Looks like we will see more urban warfare inside Ukraine’s cities. Lysychansk fell in a week so either the UAF were routed there or they have pulled back to another defensive stronghold aka a city. 

Donetsk governor urges evacuation of 350,000 citizens

“The governor of the Donetsk regional administration has told reporters on Tuesday that citizens must evacuate the region to save lives, and enable the Ukrainian army to better defend towns.”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/7/5/ukraine-russia-live-news-kyiv-prepares-for-donetsk-battles-liveblog