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Ukraine/Russian Conflict - General Discussion


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Just now, Fanta said:

The post Feb 2022 exodus was obviously the fault of the Russia invasion. Most alarming is that before the war 15 people were dying for every 9 people being born. Do the maths and that is not a recipe for population and subsequent national growth - quite the opposite. 

Russia just upped the ante then as per usual, Russia is to blame for any further decline in the Ukraine population whether you like it or not. That is to say if the Ukraine population was in the decline before the war, Russia's intervention has just accelerated even more, so however you wish to spin this evil aggressive invasion it all boils down to Russia.

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7 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The post Feb 2022 exodus was obviously the fault of the Russia invasion. Most alarming is that before the war 15 people were dying for every 9 people being born. Do the maths and that is not a recipe for population and subsequent national growth - quite the opposite. 

Is the situation better in Russia?

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2 hours ago, Transam said:

You forgot 1939/41/45 then....You live in a free country....?

Whataboutism !  How  dare you ! 😇

How do you get away  with your  childish level of trolling ?  Really ... serious  question?

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3 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Luckily our fathers and their fathers didn't compromise with Hitler, you cannot compromise with maniacal tyrants and liars.

The Nazis were obviously evil, and were calling for the creation of a master race in all of Europe - not so the Russians. Following the fall of the USSR, Russia ceded thousands of square kilometers of territory to the West. That wasn't enough - NATO seeing this as a weakness, relentlessly expanded its hostile military bloc ever eastwards, despite various warnings of overreach, instead of minding its own business and remaining in the US and western Europe, places where it was set up to defend.  

Incidentally, as evil as Hitler was, his priority was not Western Europe Generalplan Ost involved the expansion of the Third Reich eastwards, rather than westwards, and involved the invasion and destruction of Ukraine and Russia. Defeating Nazi tyranny cost the USSR 27 million people, versus 500,000 British and 400,000 Americans. We never give Russia credit for their sacrifices in WW2, instead saying that it was the winter that defeated the Nazis on the Eastern Front. It's no wonder that they don't like us.

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I don't think it was worth the whole of EU going into a dark age for a piece of Russian contested Ukraine... Call me crazy but, negotiation would still buy years where EU could both bolster defense around critical areas and secure more stable energy supplies and really save lives. But alas I am not an enlightened leader

 

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1 minute ago, dbrenn said:

The Nazis were obviously evil, and were calling for the creation of a master race in all of Europe - not so the Russians. Following the fall of the USSR, Russia ceded thousands of square kilometers of territory to the West. That wasn't enough - NATO seeing this as a weakness, relentlessly expanded its hostile military bloc ever eastwards, despite various warnings of overreach, instead of minding its own business and remaining in the US and western Europe, places where it was set up to defend.  

Incidentally, as evil as Hitler was, his priority was not Western Europe Generalplan Ost involved the expansion of the Third Reich eastwards, rather than westwards, and involved the invasion and destruction of Ukraine and Russia. Defeating Nazi tyranny cost the USSR 27 million people, versus 500,000 British and 400,000 Americans. We never give Russia credit for their sacrifices in WW2, instead saying that it was the winter that defeated the Nazis on the Eastern Front. It's no wonder that they don't like us.

Countries join NATO because they want to. Just look at Sweden and Finland.

NATO does not force countries to join it.

And the primary reason these countries want to join is what?

To protect themselves from Russia.

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13 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

The Nazis were obviously evil, and were calling for the creation of a master race in all of Europe - not so the Russians. Following the fall of the USSR, Russia ceded thousands of square kilometers of territory to the West. That wasn't enough - NATO seeing this as a weakness, relentlessly expanded its hostile military bloc ever eastwards, despite various warnings of overreach, instead of minding its own business and remaining in the US and western Europe, places where it was set up to defend.  

Incidentally, as evil as Hitler was, his priority was not Western Europe Generalplan Ost involved the expansion of the Third Reich eastwards, rather than westwards, and involved the invasion and destruction of Ukraine and Russia. Defeating Nazi tyranny cost the USSR 27 million people, versus 500,000 British and 400,000 Americans. We never give Russia credit for their sacrifices in WW2, instead saying that it was the winter that defeated the Nazis on the Eastern Front. It's no wonder that they don't like us.

It has to be said ddbrenn, it's the way you tell em. You say "we" never give Russia credit for their sacrifices in world war2", well maybe "we" don't but you and friend certainly make up for our lack in faith of Putin.

Just for the record Stalin sacrificed more Russians than any allies could, could we credit Stalin with between 9 million and beyond.

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7 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

if the Ukraine population was in the decline before the war, Russia's intervention has just accelerated even more, so however you wish to spin this evil aggressive invasion it all boils down to Russia.

There is no IF about it. Before the war the population of the arguably poorest and most corrupt country in Europe was shrinking. There should be a post war baby boom and that may balance the death rate and birth rate scales. I doubt it will boost it to the nuclear family size. Looked at from a long term perspective this war could be the best thing to happen for Ukraine since it’s split from the USSR. Provided the West’s professed undying love and support for Ukraine doesn’t waver post war then things can only get better for Ukraine. The sooner peace talks come to fruition and bring the transition to post war recovery the better. Give up 20% of the land to transition from a 3rd world agrarian economy to a 1st world rebuilt country with a modern economy and security guarantees is a bargain for a country with more pigs than people. Maybe the 3rd world & pigs bit is an exaggeration but you get the point. 

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2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

I doubt it will boost it to the nuclear family size. Looked at from a long term perspective this war could be the best thing to happen for Ukraine since it’s split from the USSR.

Oh Jesus that gave me the best laugh I have had in years. 😂

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3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Give up 20% of the land to transition from a 3rd world agrarian economy to a 1st world rebuilt country with a modern economy and security guarantees is a bargain for a country with more pigs than people. Maybe the 3rd world & pigs bit is an exaggeration but you get the point.

Again with the appeasement. 

We see you for what you are.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

It has to be said ddbrenn, it's the way you tell em. You say "we" never give Russia credit for their sacrifices in world war2", well maybe "we" don't but you and friend certainly make up for our lack in faith of Putin.

Just for the record Stalin sacrificed more Russians than any allies could, could we credit Stalin with between 9 million and beyond.

It's true that Stalin was a monster. It's also true that the Nazis would have won WW2, and the whole of Europe (including Ukraine, in an effort to stay on topic) would have become part of the Third Reich without the vast sacrifices and bravery of the Russians, who lost some 30 times the number of people than Britain and the US combined. If your parents were in Europe, you wouldn't have been born. Try not to look at things in black and white.

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Just now, dbrenn said:

It's true that Stalin was a monster. It's also true that the Nazis would have won WW2, and the whole of Europe (including Ukraine, in an effort to stay on topic) would have become part of the Third Reich without the vast sacrifices and bravery of the Russians. If your parents were in Europe, you wouldn't have been born.

Bzzzzzzt. Deflection.

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2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

There is no IF about it. Before the war the population of the arguably poorest and most corrupt country in Europe was shrinking. There should be a post war baby boom and that may balance the death rate and birth rate scales. I doubt it will boost it to the nuclear family size. Looked at from a long term perspective this war could be the best thing to happen for Ukraine since it’s split from the USSR. Provided the West’s professed undying love and support for Ukraine doesn’t waver post war then things can only get better for Ukraine. The sooner peace talks come to fruition and bring the transition to post war recovery the better. Give up 20% of the land to transition from a 3rd world agrarian economy to a 1st world rebuilt country with a modern economy and security guarantees is a bargain for a country with more pigs than people. Maybe the 3rd world & pigs bit is an exaggeration but you get the point. 

I'm sure you will be the first that Zelensky informs when Ukraine is ready for talks, but you know sometimes your freedom is more important than to be living a servile existence under Russian oppression.

Ukraine should not give up any stolen land, civilised countries do not operate under those rules, and hopefully never will.

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Just now, Rookiescot said:

Bzzzzzzt. Deflection.

You really have run out of things to say. Please stand down, until you come up with interesting and original new points to make.

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3 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

It's true that Stalin was a monster. It's also true that the Nazis would have won WW2, and the whole of Europe (including Ukraine, in an effort to stay on topic) would have become part of the Third Reich without the vast sacrifices and bravery of the Russians, who lost some 30 times the number of people than Britain and the US combined. If your parents were in Europe, you wouldn't have been born. Try not to look at things in black and white.

Without the allies supplying Russian with war essentials Russia would have faded into history, but your constant banner waving for the Russians does get very tedious. This is about an illegal war that Russia has started no matter how many incidentals you wish to conjure up.

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5 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

You really have run out of things to say. Please stand down, until you come up with interesting and original new points to make.

It is you who has run out of excuses for your hero's actions. You are trying to defend the indefensible and growing more shrill with every post as you attempt to do so. 

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3 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Without the allies supplying Russian with war essentials Russia would have faded into history, but your constant banner waving for the Russians does get very tedious. This is about an illegal war that Russia has started no matter how many incidentals you wish to conjure up.

Marble. Ignore it. He is doing his usual tactic of deflecting onto a subject he feels more comfortable with.

Then he can spam the thread with indignation. Showing how Russia is ever the "victim".

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9 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

It's true that Stalin was a monster. It's also true that the Nazis would have won WW2, and the whole of Europe (including Ukraine, in an effort to stay on topic) would have become part of the Third Reich without the vast sacrifices and bravery of the Russians, who lost some 30 times the number of people than Britain and the US combined. If your parents were in Europe, you wouldn't have been born. Try not to look at things in black and white.

"Try not to look at things in black and white."

And you try and stop patronising other posters, you did it on an earlier post by saying, "you have missed the point"

You are coming across as someone with a superiority complex, try talking to the rest of us as if we were sat down next to one another, you know, decently.😉

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21 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Again with the appeasement. 

Anything less than a “glorious” death in battle is appeasement to you. Blindly follow your “ war, war and more war” mantra and most of Ukraine will make the moon look good.

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Just now, Fanta said:

Anything less than a “glorious” death in battle is appeasement to you. Blindly follow your “ war, war and more war” mantra and most of Ukraine will make the moon look good.

You simply fail to see what has gone on. Russia invaded the Crimea. The Ukrainins gave in as an act of appeasement. Russian backed terrorists took part of the Donbass and the Ukraine gave in as appeasement. 

Appeasement is not working. That thug Putin just keeps coming back for more and more. You dont deal with people like that. He said he was not going to invade the Ukraine then he did. He said after the capture of the Crimea he didnt want any other parts of the Ukraine. But he did.

And you come on here constantly calling for appeasement. 

We see you for what you are.

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33 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Oh Jesus that gave me the best laugh I have had in years. 😂

Japan is a good example of an economy transformed by the West into an economic giant after a war. South Korea also. 

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2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

You simply fail to see what has gone on. Russia invaded the Crimea. The Ukrainins gave in as an act of appeasement. Russian backed terrorists took part of the Donbass and the Ukraine gave in as appeasement. 

Appeasement is not working. That thug Putin just keeps coming back for more and more. You dont deal with people like that. He said he was not going to invade the Ukraine then he did. He said after the capture of the Crimea he didnt want any other parts of the Ukraine. But he did.

And you come on here constantly calling for appeasement. 

We see you for what you are.

You are as ignorant of history as you are to the future. I don’t care what you are. I am just thankful you can be ignored without fear of missing out on anything relevant or interesting. 

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3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Japan is a good example of an economy transformed by the West into an economic giant after a war. South Korea also. 

So the Ukraine should be grateful that Russia has invaded it?

Well three cheers to Russia then. Hip hip hurray. 

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40 minutes ago, Fanta said:

There is no IF about it. Before the war the population of the arguably poorest and most corrupt country in Europe was shrinking. There should be a post war baby boom and that may balance the death rate and birth rate scales. I doubt it will boost it to the nuclear family size. Looked at from a long term perspective this war could be the best thing to happen for Ukraine since it’s split from the USSR. Provided the West’s professed undying love and support for Ukraine doesn’t waver post war then things can only get better for Ukraine. The sooner peace talks come to fruition and bring the transition to post war recovery the better. Give up 20% of the land to transition from a 3rd world agrarian economy to a 1st world rebuilt country with a modern economy and security guarantees is a bargain for a country with more pigs than people. Maybe the 3rd world & pigs bit is an exaggeration but you get the point. 

I understand  to some degree the reasoning  behind that suggestion. But I fear it  may be based on the historical outcome of previous "World wars" by definition. This is nothing  near that definition  in terms of scale militarily . Economically it is a different calculation. Globally the impact on economies and even viable existence for many locales that were already on the brink due to starvation and destruction from other instigated "civil" wars is vociferously announced as a dubious result of Putin's retaliation involving  Ukraine.

With  no (publically) announced resolution the EU has announced the formation of a set figure fund to " rebuild " Ukraine at the arbitrary end of aggressions'sssss ? Home to roost  for the  lend /lease armaments?

Understandably  confined to such  forums as this the majority of armchair expressed opinion is resolutely uncompromisingly consistently assuming the sway of relevance of post Empire regimes. The proposed ideology is based on an assumption that the vast  majority of  opinion sides with  that of NATO.  The evidential reality is that, although sympathetic to the population of Ukraine and coincidentally to the numerous others suffering death and  displacement as a result of  geopolitical disruption, have expressed no interest in "taking  sides" but prefer to  attempt maintaining their rightful national economies and societies  despite and having surfaced where  possible from the rapidly  declining colonialist servitude !

There is no "correctness" in the  "Might is Right" philosophy. In refusal of recognition of that is where the problem resides. The  countries that manipulate the contest  by becoming puppeteers of other sacrificial nations are the  most dispicable !

 

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3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

You are as ignorant of history as you are to the future. I don’t care what you are. I am just thankful you can be ignored without fear of missing out on anything relevant or interesting. 

Well I for one am going to be devastated that a Putin supporter who wants appeasement has put me on ignore. Its was genuinely enlightening to hear those cries of "Just give Putin what he wants".

And lets not forget "Putin is the victim in all of this. Its NATO's fault".

But the classic will always be "Putin is justified in this war because he is killing nazis" while both the Ukrainian President and Prime Minister are jewish.  

So I do thank you for your insightfulness and am genuinely crestfallen that you will no longer respond to my posts. It may take me some time to get over this. Oh wait. Never mind. I have beer.

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