Ukraine/Russian Conflict - General Discussion

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

So no proof of your “you wrote …”  claim. Again. Here’s a tip - don’t claim if it you cannot prove it. 
I don’t hate the IWS. I loath the biased warmongers. Subtle difference and your guesswork about my motivations is wrong. Big nosed Greek? again you have confused me with someone else. 
Treat all information carefully.

Others will remember it Fanta so you bet your reputation at your own risk.

[Transam]

13 minutes ago, BeerIsLife said:

I am just wondeirng how much blood/treasure need be spent in this conflict.  The US has committed more than $40 billion- that is $400 for EVERY family in the US. I am sure people have better uses for that money. Plus, where will it come from? THere are two choices only- borrow (probably from China) or take from another government department. Neither is palatable.

Don't get me wrong, I think Putin is odious. But just not worth the lives or cash to stop him. Europe can get together and foot the bill, if they want to. It is time to stop looking at Uncle Sugar to pay for every regional conflict that pops up.

You forgot 1939/41/45 then....You live in a free country....?

[Transam]

9 minutes ago, Fanta said:

So no proof of your “you wrote …”  claim. Again. Here’s a tip - don’t claim if it you cannot prove it. 
I don’t hate the IWS. I loath the biased warmongers. Subtle difference and your guesswork about my motivations is wrong. Big nosed Greek? again you have confused me with someone else. 
Treat all information carefully.

"You loath Biased warmongers", you support a warmonger, Russia, you have never said a word of support for the aggrieved, Ukraine.... How strange....

 

[dbrenn]

1 hour ago, Smithydog said:

No use crying about uneven coverage when Russia bans the journalists people want to see reporting on the ground from even entering the country! This report highlights different ones banned including BBC.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/jun/14/russia-bans-29-uk-journalists-including-guardian-correspondents

An argument for more or better balanced coverage by the BBC is in the hands of Russia. Free up the access and allow journalists to report what they actually see, not just what Russia wants them to see or report on. Get rid of the Russian law banning certain types of news reports....i.e. ones against the Russian public position? 

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/07/1084870797/russia-has-reasserted-state-control-over-the-country-s-major-media-companies

Sorry, but you can't expect more or better balanced journalism when a country itself inhibits the ability to offer balanced reporting. It fair to complain about it when journalists are allowed to report freely, without such restrictions and not any one-sided view. If they don't then offer more and balanced reporting, then it is fair to question. 

It works both ways as well. Did the Russian journalists equally report about the ceasefire breaches by the Donbas rebels as advised in the daily monitoring reports by the SMM in Ukraine?....don't seem to see any! Perhaps they too need to do more and better balanced reporting.

https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports

You're missing the point.

Where are the journalists reporting from the Ukrainian side then, at tge front, like war correspondents used to do? By that I nean on the ground, in what's left of Ukraine.

You'd think that the Ukrainian side would be delighted to welcome Western press into every nook and cranny, to witness all of tge horrors that Russia is alleged to be perpetrating. But nothing. All we have from our hitherto trusted sources of news is quoting verbatim what the Ukrainian government says.

Rhe MSM that you freely quote here is really a Ukrainian government mouthpiece, as biased as the Russian side because there's a war on. Try as you will, you won't get away from that.

Are you denying what the MSM was reporting in 2014, when they were on the ground, and if so, why? And please don't echo the simple minds here in saying that the ramp up to this war is "past scraps".

Edited July 5 by dbrenn

[Fanta]

10 minutes ago, BeerIsLife said:

I am just wondeirng how much blood/treasure need be spent in this conflict.  The US has committed more than $40 billion- that is $400 for EVERY family in the US. I am sure people have better uses for that money. Plus, where will it come from? THere are two choices only- borrow (probably from China) or take from another government department. Neither is palatable.

Don't get me wrong, I think Putin is odious. But just not worth the lives or cash to stop him. Europe can get together and foot the bill, if they want to. It is time to stop looking at Uncle Sugar to pay for every regional conflict that pops up.

This…. this is called war fatigue. Expect to see a lot more of it. Latest news is about a $750 billion Marshall plan for Ukraine. Woo hoo!

Only 4 months of war and 750 billion + all the aid = 1 trillion before XMAS?

“Ukraine will need a massive $750 billion for its recovery following Russia’s invasion, the county’s Prime Minister Denys Shmyhal said while speaking to international leaders in Switzerland gathered for the Ukraine Recovery Conference”

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/04/russia-ukraine-war-updates.html

[Fanta]

6 minutes ago, Transam said:

"You loath Biased warmongers", you support a warmonger, Russia, you have never said a word of support for the aggrieved, Ukraine.... How strange....

I am the peacenik, remember? I do not and will not encourage either side to continue this. 

[Transam]

3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

I am the peacenik, remember? I do not and will not encourage either side to continue this. 

Yet you do not support the invaded country, you support the invader, why is that...?

[vlad]

24 minutes ago, Transam said:

You forgot 1939/41/45 then....You live in a free country....?

Here we go again bringing the US Into a thread give it a rest next it'll be all Bidens fault.

[Transam]

Just now, vlad said:

Here we go again bringing the US Into a thread give it a rest next it'll be all Bidens fault.

Wasn't me.....

[Transam]

22 minutes ago, Transam said:

Yet you do not support the invaded country, you support the invader, why is that...?

I will ask Fanta again, you say you are not a warmonger, yet HERE you support the Russian invaders of a free no problem nation, Ukraine, why is that.......?

Most posters here shed a tear for the slaughter of the Ukraine innocent, why not a word of remorse from you. If it is that your thing is argument, wind-up, then say so, I am sure we will all understand......

 

[dbrenn]

56 minutes ago, Fanta said:

I am the peacenik, remember? I do not and will not encourage either side to continue this. 

I've been calling for a ceasefire or truce from the start too, because Ukraine stands to being totally destroyed otherwise, and millions of people in Ukraine, Russia and the wider world might die if this thing escalates. It's so sad that all the people here calling for more and more war accuse the people actually calling for a truce of being pro-one-side-or-the-other, rather than accepting as sensible the good intention to end this terrible loss of life. 

Some people here seem to equating the two warring sides to their favourite football teams. It's all rather horrid and sad - as if war and killing is the only source of excitement in their empty and boring lives, so they don't want it to stop. Russia is bombing Ukraine. Ukraine bombed parts of Ukraine.

The funny part of all this is that I put an RT article on this thread showing the Ukrainian bombing of Lukhansk, and people here were trying to censor it out as being from an unreliable source. How predictable. I then put an article from CNN telling the exact same story, and people then pretended it didn't exist and dismissed it as irrelevant, even though they themselves post CNN material as fact. Stories that question the Holy Ukraine simply don't fit the narrative of the day. Has everyone lost their ability to think critically? It seems so.

Edited July 5 by dbrenn

[Faz]

13 minutes ago, RedBirdy said:

You seem to make moralistic arguments against people based on their alignment in this conflict yet fail to acknowledge History, Context, and Precedent. How can you condemn others effectively when you have done the same thing or more extreem in recent history. Each event is not taken within a vacuum.

I understand people love their country etc but this is a basic impediment to good faith arguments. Dont pretend things didn't happen in the past and want to construct your own reality based on constructed and convenient rhetoric to influence the thought process of those less informed

This topic is about the conflict between Ukraine v Russia in 2022, not the history of previous conflicts.
FG's rule 6. All text and posted content must align to the topic and/or the first post under that topic. 

If you want to discuss the history of previous conflicts and any relevance to the current war - open a new topic! Stop trying to deflect this topic.

Moderator

[Fanta]

11 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

I've been calling for a ceasefire or truce from the start too, because Ukraine stands to being totally destroyed otherwise, and millions of people in Ukraine, Russia and the wider world might die if this thing escalates. It's so sad that all the people here calling for more and more war accuse the people actually calling for a truce of being pro-one-side-or-the-other, rather than accepting as sensible the good intention to end this terrible loss of life. 

Some people here seem to equating the two warring sides to their favourite football teams. It's all rather horrid and sad - as if war and killing is the only source of excitement in their empty and boring lives, so they don't want it to stop.

The real cost of this war is not just dollar and cents. Over 6 million people have left Ukraine since Feb 2022. How many of those will come back to what is left of Ukraine? Add in the declining birth rate and that is a serious drain. 
“Since the 1990s, Ukraine’s population has been declining due to high emigration rates, low birth rates, and high death rates. Ukraine’s birth rate is 9.2 births per 1,000 people, which has decreased over 2% every year the past several years, and its death rate is 15.193 deaths per 1,000 people”

https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/ukraine-population 

The United Nations estimates that Ukraine could lose nearly one-fifth of its population by 2050.

[Marble-eye]

1 hour ago, dbrenn said:

Where are the journalists reporting from the Ukrainian side then, at tge front, like war correspondents used to do? By that I nean on the ground, in what's left of Ukraine.

The Russians have killed them all, reportedly 15 journalists have been killed by the Russian sharp shooters, it would seem the Russian modus operandi is if it moves..... kill it and if it doesn't move...bomb it.

"Reporters Without Borders has concluded that photojournalist Maks Levin was likely executed by Russian troops."

https://pressgazette.co.uk/journalists-attacked-in-ukraine/

 

 

 

[Marble-eye]

10 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Over 6 million people have left Ukraine since Feb 2022. How many of those will come back to what is left of Ukraine

Who shall we blame for this, do you think that Russia had anything to do with Ukrainians leaving their own country, most people would blame Russia for the exodus but who do you blame?

[Rookiescot]

38 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

I've been calling for a ceasefire or truce from the start too, because Ukraine stands to being totally destroyed otherwise, and millions of people in Ukraine, Russia and the wider world might die if this thing escalates. It's so sad that all the people here calling for more and more war accuse the people actually calling for a truce of being pro-one-side-or-the-other, rather than accepting as sensible the good intention to end this terrible loss of life. 

Some people here seem to equating the two warring sides to their favourite football teams. It's all rather horrid and sad - as if war and killing is the only source of excitement in their empty and boring lives, so they don't want it to stop. Russia is bombing Ukraine. Ukraine bombed parts of Ukraine.

The funny part of all this is that I put an RT article on this thread showing the Ukrainian bombing of Lukhansk, and people here were trying to censor it out as being from an unreliable source. How predictable. I then put an article from CNN telling the exact same story, and people then pretended it didn't exist and dismissed it as irrelevant, even though they themselves post CNN material as fact. Stories that question the Holy Ukraine simply don't fit the narrative of the day. Has everyone lost their ability to think critically? It seems so.

Yes it is odd you all call for a ceasefire but only on Putins terms.

We see you for what you are.

[RedBirdy]

Lol when have terms ever been dictated by the savaged party? West is used to dictating terms but that would require a more advantageous position. Like actually backing up big bollox rhetoric in Ukraine and holding real commodities like essential energy supplies, which EU desperately needs to get through even this winter.

 

[dbrenn]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Yes it is odd you all call for a ceasefire but only on Putins terms.

We see you for what you are.

You've run out of rebuttals, and have none more to make. I've said all along that a truce would involve a compromise. Any kind of truce always does.

[Marble-eye]

43 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

I've been calling for a ceasefire or truce from the start too, because Ukraine stands to being totally destroyed otherwise, and millions of people in Ukraine, Russia and the wider world might die if this thing escalates.

"I've been calling for a ceasefire or truce from the start too"

Did you contact anybody of any importance with your amazing solution that would grant the Russians with the land they stole, Boutrus Boutrus Ghali, Perez de Cuellar or even Henry Kissinger perhaps. 

You do know it is those Russians that is destroying Ukraine don't you, are you seriously saying that nations should give way to aggression, thank goodness the Ukrainians don't think like you do. 

 

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

You've run out of rebuttals, and have none more to make. I've said all along that a truce would involve a compromise. Any kind of truce always does.

Yes a compromise on Putins terms.

We see you for what you are. 

[Marble-eye]

6 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

You've run out of rebuttals, and have none more to make. I've said all along that a truce would involve a compromise. Any kind of truce always does.

Luckily our fathers and their fathers didn't compromise with Hitler, you cannot compromise with maniacal tyrants and liars.

[RedBirdy]

3 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Luckily our fathers and their fathers didn't compromise with Hitler, you cannot compromise with maniacal tyrants and liars.

Hey stay on topic.... this is about Ukraine not history.... As per the moderators ;)

[Fanta]

23 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Who shall we blame for this, do you think that Russia had anything to do with Ukrainians leaving their own country, most people would blame Russia for the exodus but who do you blame?

The post Feb 2022 exodus was obviously the fault of the Russia invasion. Most alarming is that before the war 15 people were dying for every 9 people being born. Do the maths and that is not a recipe for population and subsequent national growth - quite the opposite. 

[Marble-eye]

Just now, RedBirdy said:

Hey stay on topic.... this is about Ukraine not history.... As per the moderators ;)

Putin keeps it on topic by calling him a 'maniacal tyrant and liar'

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Luckily our fathers and their fathers didn't compromise with Hitler, you cannot compromise with maniacal tyrants and liars.

The sad truth is they did at the start and it didnt work.

The same happened with Putin when he stole the Crimea. The Ukrainians wrote it off as an appeasement. 

When Russian backed terrorists stole some of the Donbass the Ukrainians wrote it off as an appeasement.

All this did was embolden Putin to think he can get more. So now we have a war in the Ukraine.

Still the Putin apologists on here claim all Putin wants is peace.

A little piece of Georgia and a little piece of the Ukraine.