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News Forum - Teenage gunman goes on rampage killing 19 children and 2 adults at a Texas primary school


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4 hours ago, Fanta said:

The why is the necessity of owning guns caused largely by the gun culture in the US. No guns = no gun culture = no mass shootings. Every life is sacred. Dressing the paranoia up in red, white & blue is just another aspect of the defense of the indefensible and self defense is a justification for the very tools that cause unnecessary deaths. Simple as that. If I lived in the US I would carry out of necessity. In most other countries I would not feel the need to carry a “force multiplier” because I would not live in fear of the general population. Americans need their guns because of their fellow Americans. Gun ownership is a national addiction. All addictions need to be recognized and admitted to before action can be taken to address the root cause. 

You are $amn right its an addiction. There a reason the 2nd amendment to the Constitution was just number two behind free speech... And it ain't about the right to hunt animals. Here is the fundamental causative issue that causes these mass shootings... from a WAPO article. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/25/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-gunman/

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1 hour ago, Augratin said:

Or, "how to lie with statistics".  Here's something that is a bit more on topic:

1351460469_schoolshootingsbycountry.thumb.PNG.0054dea1fde6761171b6b03b838d59cd.PNG

The statistics I quoted weren't lying. The context of the conversation was and is the totality of gun deaths... You can cherry pick the school shootings all you want, however the context of the conversation that I responded to was overall gun deaths... so I wasn't lying. You want to break down the totality of the statistics that is fine... but the overall numbers were not a lie. 

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3 hours ago, Smithydog said:

This highlights the issue in the USA compared to other countries. Why should such measures even be needed? Metal detectors was the talk of the land for a while. Other countries have no need for such measures to protect the kids, so why does the USA, unless there is a real problem they are unwilling to do anything about.

To take it to an extreme, what next? Strip searches daily, barbed wire, gun emplacements and body cavity searches? Rapid Response SWAT teams posted on the grounds?

I am not such how added measures build kids into responsible adults nor proclaim their freedom!

“Why should such measures even be needed”?

 Deterrents ! My country cant be compared to other countries.

extreme times cause extreme measures!

The crazies are coming to schools  better to fortify it from them ! Maybe they will be discouraged if they are intimidated with meeting force or other measures.

 

 

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Switzerland has one of the highest civilian gun ownerships in the world, yet hardly ever a problem, 8 million people and 2 million guns, what does that tell ME...

Weeeell, looking at the USA probs, it may well be to do with the population numbers, the fruitcake numbers per capita, 332,000,000 vs 8,000,000 ...😜

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8 minutes ago, riclag said:

“Why should such measures even be needed”?

 Deterrents ! My country cant be compared to other countries.

extreme times cause extreme measures!

School head to would-be teacher Err what qualifications do you have to teach at my School? Err I am fully qualified and I have a Degree anything else? Err are you trained to use firearms in my School err yes I have a Magnum probably the best handgun in the world and capable of blowing your head clear off, and for back up I have an AK47 mm ok your in start on Monday.

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16 minutes ago, riclag said:

“Why should such measures even be needed”?

 Deterrents ! My country cant be compared to other countries.

extreme times cause extreme measures!

The crazies are coming to schools  better to fortify it from them ! Maybe they will be discouraged if they are intimidated with meeting force or other measures.

Sadly U.S. Federal law has emasculated any teachers that for example are ex-cops, ex-military, current gun instructors/experts etc., that could have been carrying a concealed weapon and taken out the shooter, instead having to wait for police to arrive. If competent teachers were armed, there would in fact be a deterrent effect as well as an actual overall threat and loss of life reduction.

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On 5/25/2022 at 1:30 PM, Tim_Melb said:

The stupidity and total lack of understanding of US history in this statement are mind blowing, but it's the exact reason why the US has the highest rate of gun crime, murders, accidental gun related deaths and mass shootings in the world,it's also why that fact will never change. 

America broke free from the tyranny of a Monarchy. The way they did was by weapons ownership. The freedom experiment was born... yeah, they kept slaves, and enslaved the local native indians, but we would all agree that the ideas are there... hence the experiment. The so called founding fathers understood that firearms were and are a necessary element to retain American Freedom. 

To the charge of a total lack of understanding of U.S. history... I would like to educate Mr. Tim_Melb on why the 2nd amendment was almost as important as the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution... here's your history lesson sir.
 

 

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5 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

America broke free from the tyranny of a Monarchy. The way they did was by weapons ownership. The freedom experiment was born... yeah, they kept slaves, and enslaved the local native indians, but we would all agree that the ideas are there... hence the experiment. The so called founding fathers understood that firearms were and are a necessary element to retain American Freedom. 

To the charge of a total lack of understanding of U.S. history... I would like to educate Mr. Tim_Melb on why the 2nd amendment was almost as important as the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution... here's your history lesson sir.
 

There's me thinking it was Europeans taking over folks land and dealing with them with guns.... 🤔

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11 minutes ago, Transam said:

There's me thinking it was Europeans taking over folks land and dealing with them with guns.... 🤔

If you're trying to say that the experiment failed... I would agree. For me... the experiment is over. The really sick ones, those in charge, declared war upon We The American people, the opening shot, was the one that killed JFK and then subsequently again with the murder of his brother Bobby Kennedy. Those two events were the immoral ruling class asserting their power over the masses. The rot, the overwhelming immorality (the inability to CHOOSE right over wrong) is now so pervasive... I would now opine there's no saving it (America). It's over... and not even 250 years have gone by. It's sad. Maybe somewhere else in the world can try again? 

In any given society, as morality increases, freedom increases, as morality declines, freedom declines... and America is clearly in decline.

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1 hour ago, Freeduhdumb said:

America broke free from the tyranny of a Monarchy. The way they did was by weapons ownership. The freedom experiment was born... yeah, they kept slaves, and enslaved the local native indians, but we would all agree that the ideas are there... hence the experiment. The so called founding fathers understood that firearms were and are a necessary element to retain American Freedom. 

To the charge of a total lack of understanding of U.S. history... I would like to educate Mr. Tim_Melb on why the 2nd amendment was almost as important as the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution... here's your history lesson sir.
 

Broken from tyranny of a Monarchy to now be under the tyranny of the gun. Sounds like society has made wonderful progress.😕

Not sure it is something most people would chose to brag about. Especially when kids are being killed.

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15 minutes ago, riclag said:

What would bring someone to want to kill school kids!

Who can really say @riclagwhat was in his mind or that of others who have done the same thing. Rational people cannot see why anyone would do such a thing. 

It could be anything from a power rage, to a hatred of schools and it was close, or a gutless capacity to fight people of his own age that could defend themselves. Kids....Easy targets for a cowardly, demented scumbag.

I don't usually allow my religious educational upbringing to show. But at times like this I can only hope that there is a particular section of the hell fires of the damned set aside specifically to forever torment child killers like him.

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31 minutes ago, riclag said:

What would bring someone to want to kill school kids!

From what I'm seeing.

1. The left leaning MSM that promote hate 24/7.

2. Big Tech who again promote rage .

3. The Democrat Party who villanise Law Enforcement promote abortion and degrade to rule of law.

Now I'm not American I'm a Welsh Expat living in Pattaya so I  look at it from a neutral point of view.

If you look at the left leaning MSM they remind me of radical Islamic hate preacher's they make outrageous statements much of which is extremely racist in its nature. 

Between them and certain Democrat Politician's they try and keep The US at simmering point constantly. 

If anyone is ever in doubt randomly watch a few hours of the Left leaning MSM and then do the same with the Right leaning MSM the difference is day & night.

Yesterday a classic example the left screaming insults and blaming everyone they don't like and the right was all about the victims. 

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20 hours ago, vlad said:

A constitution over 200 yrs ago when muskets were being used now 18 yr old kids can buy semi Automatic Rifles from a high St store and then go onto shoot kids in School God bless the USA.

So the first amendment should only applie to quill pens and ink bottles cause that was the only thing being used when the constitution was written 

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2 hours ago, Smithydog said:

Broken from tyranny of a Monarchy to now be under the tyranny of the gun. Sounds like society has made wonderful progress.😕

Not sure it is something most people would chose to brag about. Especially when kids are being killed.

No one is under the tyranny of the gun what needs to be done is increase the penalty for murder regardless of weapon used. Automatic death penalty in public and shown on TV 1 automatic appeal then carried out in a year or less 

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12 minutes ago, MikeW said:

No one is under the tyranny of the gun what needs to be done is increase the penalty for murder regardless of weapon used. Automatic death penalty in public and shown on TV 1 automatic appeal then carried out in a year or less 

The Death penalty is an excellent deterrent cuts down the re-offending rates and saves the Tax payer money over the long run. 

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1 hour ago, 23RD said:

From what I'm seeing.

1. The left leaning MSM that promote hate 24/7.

2. Big Tech who again promote rage .

3. The Democrat Party who villanise Law Enforcement promote abortion and degrade to rule of law.

Now I'm not American I'm a Welsh Expat living in Pattaya so I  look at it from a neutral point of view.

If you look at the left leaning MSM they remind me of radical Islamic hate preacher's they make outrageous statements much of which is extremely racist in its nature. 

Between them and certain Democrat Politician's they try and keep The US at simmering point constantly. 

If anyone is ever in doubt randomly watch a few hours of the Left leaning MSM and then do the same with the Right leaning MSM the difference is day & night.

Yesterday a classic example the left screaming insults and blaming everyone they don't like and the right was all about the victims. 

Wow, you really seem to have a selective view of US media. Judging from your comments, perhaps just a bit of "unconscious bias" is showing through in your opinion like most of us. 😀

Ad Fonte media is an independent tracker of US media and produces charts showing the reality of the broadcasts Americans and others are exposed to. Clearly, extreme views are on both sides when judged on the merits.

https://adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/?utm_source=HomePage_StaticMBC_Button&utm_medium=OnWebSite_Button

 

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13 minutes ago, 23RD said:

The Death penalty is an excellent deterrent cuts down the re-offending rates and saves the Tax payer money over the long run. 

There are no credible evidences that death penalty acts as a deterrent against homicides. If so, US states with death penalty would have lower crime rate than others without, which is not, according to statistics (which the web is full of, you can google as you please). NY Times wrote an article back in 2000 on this aspect:

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/22/us/absence-executions-special-report-states-with-no-death-penalty-share-lower.html

It is surely deterring the criminal who committed the crime, but not other persons, as lawbreakers generally assume they will not be caught or, if so, will be able to dodge the penalty.

Moreover, an execution is not saving taxpayers money at all, according to this document:

https://www.leg.state.nv.us/App/NELIS/REL/76th2011/ExhibitDocument/OpenExhibitDocument?exhibitId=17686&fileDownloadName=h041211ab501_pescetta.pdf

Just taking the first example from California, the most conservative figure on death penalty put its cost per year 10+ times higher than lifelong sentences (130 millions vs 11.5 millions).

 

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10 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Wow, you really seem to have a selective view of US media. Judging from your comments, perhaps just a bit of "unconscious bias" is showing through in your opinion like most of us. 😀

I don't really have a  bias like I've previously said I'm not American I'm an outsider looking in.

What I've noticed if you're on the Right of The MSM you're under pressure to say the correct thing 99% of the time but if you're Left leaning you seem to be able to make outrageous and in many cases racist statements without being called out. 

I went through a comparison process similar to if I was buying a  new car, phone or laptop for example. If you watched randomly and compared various MSM outlets on both the left & right you'd see what I mean.

22 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Ad Fonte media is an independent tracker of US media and produces charts showing the reality of the broadcasts Americans and others are exposed to.

Is this really independent? Or does it have a bias?. For example we know Big Tech has shown a  clear bias to Republicans in The US.

Probably better to take the challenge watch equal amount of both sides and draw your own conclusions. 

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I am not convinced on the deterrent factor of the death penalty in these such killings. After all, often the killer, this this tragedy, was shot on the premises, but that didn't stop him already killing all those kids.

If the mental state is of such a nature, any thought of reason, like you will be put to death if you do it, flies out the window as a consideration. 

Think you might also encounter some challenges with fifth amendment advocates. Challenging barrier sometimes is the US Constitution.

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22 minutes ago, Ivo_Shandor said:

There are no credible evidences that death penalty acts as a deterrent against homicides. If so, US states with death penalty would have lower crime rate than others without, which is not, according to statistics (which the web is full of, you can google as you please). NY Times wrote an article back in 2000 on this aspect:

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/22/us/absence-executions-special-report-states-with-no-death-penalty-share-lower.html

It is surely deterring the criminal who committed the crime, but not other persons, as lawbreakers generally assume they will not be caught or, if so, will be able to dodge the penalty.

Moreover, an execution is not saving taxpayers money at all, according to this document:

https://www.leg.state.nv.us/App/NELIS/REL/76th2011/ExhibitDocument/OpenExhibitDocument?exhibitId=17686&fileDownloadName=h041211ab501_pescetta.pdf

Just taking the first example from California, the most conservative figure on death penalty put its cost per year 10+ times higher than lifelong sentences (130 millions vs 11.5 millions).

I believe in the death penalty so long as it's given due diligence and proven beyond reasonable doubt. 

However if you look at the last two mass shooting over the last couple of weeks both shooter's showed signs of mental illness so highly unlikely that either would be convicted in a Court of Law.

But Ivo I'd like here your views on bail reform in The US ? To me it's a terrible idea to let violent repeat offenders back on the streets hours after they commit violent crimes when they have a history of violent crimes because they cannot afford bail.

BTW The NYT isn't a reliable news source as many recent retractions have proved.

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Posted (edited)

I am not an US citizen, neither I live there, and not very interested in their death penalty and gun issues, or bail reform. On a general view, I am fine if DP is used to remove from society subjects past redemption, people like John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy, just to make a pair. However, DP is subject to errors, so unless there is a blatant evidence people are unworthy to stay alive (vide supra), I am not very supportive on it. Most importantly, execution should be performed, provided these boundary conditions I stated, immediately after sentence, not waiting years in the death row.

Edited by Ivo_Shandor
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7 minutes ago, 23RD said:

I don't really have a  bias like I've previously said I'm not American I'm an outsider looking in.

What I've noticed if you're on the Right of The MSM you're under pressure to say the correct thing 99% of the time but if you're Left leaning you seem to be able to make outrageous and in many cases racist statements without being called out. 

I went through a comparison process similar to if I was buying a  new car, phone or laptop for example. If you watched randomly and compared various MSM outlets on both the left & right you'd see what I mean.

Is this really independent? Or does it have a bias?. For example we know Big Tech has shown a  clear bias to Republicans in The US.

Probably better to take the challenge watch equal amount of both sides and draw your own conclusions. 

So Tucker Carlson and Alex Jones, just two examples of those on the right say the correct thing 99% of the time, just to mention two? I think you are over estimating your opinion. I too watch both and my opinion would differ.

To answer your question. Ad Fonte Media has been claimed by some to have a slightly left leaning bias if anything, but by far it is the most accurate measure of its type of US media available. The extent of research that goes into each report is massive and often flies in the face of MSM reactions to various stories and beliefs.

Nothing is truly unbiased and the chart only reflects the findings of their reviews. For example, when I was looking at Joe Rogan, believing to likely find he was programming just far right support, I was surprised to find their review argued very differently to my opinion.

Have a look at this if you are interested. The founder goes through how they assessed Joe and why they came up with their results. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBto73wcGwI

MSM has bias and that is often the problem. You seem to have to watch a right wing aligned show to get one set of details and then a left wing aligned show to hear the rest!

But the coverage at the moment in this tragedy is all too familiar and is simply happening too often. Personally I just want to hear the news of those with the guts to get together with their partisan opponents and come up with a solution formed in consensus.

Sadly, too much is partisan and political in the US now and it is costing American lives on both sides of politics.

 

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5 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

So Tucker Carlson and Alex Jones

Tucker Carlson faultless Alex Jones nutcase. 

 

7 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Ad Fonte Media

I will have a look into this Smithydog thanks for recommding. 

 

8 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

You seem to have to watch a right wing aligned show to get one set of details and then a left wing aligned show to hear the rest!

I'll try and put it another way if you were in a Bar and started a conversation with two random strangers after 10 minutes you'd noticed one guy talked alot of BS and tall stories and the other guy was very reasonable and made sense that's what I  found with The US MSM but I had to listen to both before I could draw that conclusion. 

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Just an idea here but they have surely seen enough to estimate when someone is almost at the point of one of these 'events' so cant they head them off somehow? They are hardly unique at this stage?

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