News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[dbrenn]

23 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Not at all. I do recommend you back your opinions and views with credible links though.

I presume that you're aware that Ukraine cut off Crimea's water supply after Russia annexed it in 2014. Do you agree in collectively punishing civilians by depriving them of water? After all, we must all hold the view that Ukraine is angelic and can do no wrong.

Am I deviating from the Zelensky worship mandate of this thread by blaspheming in such a way?

And here's a link to keep you happy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Crimean_Canal

Edited June 2, 2022 by dbrenn

[oldschooler]

16 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Glad you said that. But I find fault with both Zelensky and Putin. Is that allowed here, or does one have to occupy one or the other of two polar opposites?

You “ find fault”  with Putin.

How incisive, how analytical , how magnanimous of you. Awaiting further brilliant insights, if somewhat massively understated

“One” has to be objective, balanced and reasonable. NOTHING Zelensky or Ukraine has done justifies getting made war upon and invaded

……not by any civilized standards. 

Can we perhaps fairly conclude by that war crime invasion and subsequent clear war crimes & atrocities that the Murderous Nationalistic Fascist Tyrant Putin & Russia is indeed NOT CIVILIZED ?

The fact that Corrupt Ukraine is not Perfect has Nothing to do with any Russia Invasion.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, dbrenn said:

I presume that you're aware that Ukraine cut off Crimea's water supply after Russia annexed it in 2014. Do you agree in collectively punishing civilians by depriving them of water? After all, we must all hold the view that Ukraine is angelic and can do no wrong.

Am I deviating from the Zelensky worship mandate of this thread by blaspheming in such a way?

I was unaware the Ukraine had cut off the water supply. Do you have a link to that?

However I do know Zelensky was not voted into power till 2019 so its probably not got a lot to do with him.

[oldschooler]

3 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

I presume that you're aware that Ukraine cut off Crimea's water supply after Russia annexed it in 2014. Do you agree in collectively punishing civilians by depriving them of water? After all, we must all hold the view that Ukraine is angelic and can do no wrong.

Am I deviating from the Zelensky worship mandate of this thread by blaspheming in such a way?

And here's a link to keep you happy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Crimean_Canal

Perfectly Justified Action. Let Russia provide Water since it stole that land. No responsibility on Ukraine to do that. Your stance is most peculiar. 

[dbrenn]

Just now, Rookiescot said:

I was unaware the Ukraine had cut off the water supply. Do you have a link to that?

However I do know Zelensky was not voted into power till 2019 so its probably not got a lot to do with him.

Link just posted. Should we now move on to the Right Sector and the Azov Battalion, famed for their use,  believe it or not as part of Ukraine’s regular army, of sporting Nazi insignia such as the wolfsangel and panzer chevrons, while they coached lovable old grannies to use semi-automatic rifles 

[dbrenn]

3 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Perfectly Justified Action. Let Russia provide Water since it stole that land. No responsibility on Ukraine to do that. Your stance is most peculiar. 

Collectively punishing civilians by cutting off their water supply is justified. If you say so. I'll bet you're glad you don't live there though. 

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Lessons in morality and tolerance from you? 555. Anyway I was pointing out the latest most glaring example of propaganda being spouted by the same people apparently inflicting devastating losses onto the enemy while they march backwards. I’m just letting you down gently otherwise I fear you will lose faith in mankind when Ukraine cede territory to the Russians in exchange for peace. It is coming. 

I don’t tolerate malicious duplicitous  nonsense. You haven’t read my post properly at all. Especially the part about well - intentioned moral- boosting “ good” propaganda vs. evil nonsense from murderous aggressors.

Shameful you STILL promote non- existent equivalence. 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, dbrenn said:

Link just posted. Should we now move on to the Right Sector and the Azov Battalion, famed for their use,  believe it or not as part of Ukraine’s regular army, of sporting Nazi insignia such as the wolfsangel and panzer chevrons, while they coached lovable old grannies to use semi-automatic rifles 

We can do if you also want to discuss the far larger Wagner group which fights as Putins private army in places as far afield as Africa, Syria, Georgia and the Ukraine.

Wagner Group - Wikipedia

[dbrenn]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

I was unaware the Ukraine had cut off the water supply. Do you have a link to that?

However I do know Zelensky was not voted into power till 2019 so its probably not got a lot to do with him.

Zelensky was actually elected on rapprochement with Russia and the Minsk II treaty was part of an effort to turn Ukraine into a federation, similar to places like Switzerland, the US or Australia. One that included all the various ethnicities in the Donbass and elsewhere. 

He tried, but he was overruled by far right nationalists, and he had no choice other than to concede.

[dbrenn]

3 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

I don’t tolerate malicious duplicitous  nonsense. You haven’t read my post properly at all. Especially the part about well - intentioned moral- boosting “ good” propaganda vs. evil nonsense from murderous aggressors.

Shameful you STILL promote non- existent equivalence. 

You seem to rage a lot.

[oldschooler]

2 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Collectively punishing civilians by cutting off their water supply is justified. If you say so. I'll bet you're glad you don't live there though. 

I have never lived under tyranny nor would I. Why on EARTH would Ukraine continue to supply ANYTHING to an Enemy State stealing its lawful land! Enemy naturally becomes Fully Responsible for ALL that “Annexed” Land.

[dbrenn]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

We can do if you also want to discuss the far larger Wagner group which fights as Putins private army in places as far afield as Africa, Syria, Georgia and the Ukraine.

Wagner Group - Wikipedia

I'm against them too. 

[oldschooler]

5 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Zelensky was actually elected on rapprochement with Russia and the Minsk II treaty was part of an effort to turn Ukraine into a federation, similar to places like Switzerland, the US or Australia. One that included all the various ethnicities in the Donbass and elsewhere. 

He tried, but he was overruled by far right nationalists, and he had no choice other than to concede.

Minsk a tyrant occupier- imposed so invalid “ treaty”. Completely illegal. Not for Russia to dictate how other free states govern themselves

[dbrenn]

Just now, oldschooler said:

Minsk a tyrant occupier- imposed so invalid “ treaty”. Completely illegal. Not for Russia to dictate how other free states govern themselves

Relax and take a stress pill mate. We're having a measured and civilised discussion here. Don't get so upset. 

[Fanta]

12 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

I don’t tolerate malicious duplicitous  nonsense. You haven’t read my post properly at all. Especially the part about well - intentioned moral- boosting “ good” propaganda vs. evil nonsense from murderous aggressors.

Shameful you STILL promote non- existent equivalence. 

Name any Russian propaganda I have promoted. imo, this propaganda from Kyiv regarding the children is meant for the truly gullible. The problem is that if anyone doubts it then they may also doubt other claims from Ukraine and that is how public support is eroded. As seen in the obvious desire of some to silence any voice that is not 100% on message and in agreement with Kyiv. Post anything deemed to be even slightly anti Ukraine and watch the vitriol flow. 

[oldschooler]

14 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Link just posted. Should we now move on to the Right Sector and the Azov Battalion, famed for their use,  believe it or not as part of Ukraine’s regular army, of sporting Nazi insignia such as the wolfsangel and panzer chevrons, while they coached lovable old grannies to use semi-automatic rifles 

Four times more Nazis in Russia than Ukraine based on general population and extreme nationalism deployed in both nations with much similarity.  

[Rookiescot]

20 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Zelensky was actually elected on rapprochement with Russia and the Minsk II treaty was part of an effort to turn Ukraine into a federation, similar to places like Switzerland, the US or Australia. One that included all the various ethnicities in the Donbass and elsewhere. 

He tried, but he was overruled by far right nationalists, and he had no choice other than to concede.

Did anyone in the Russian parliament vote against Czar Putins illegal invasion? Were they even given a vote?

I suspect if a law was proposed in the UK to turn it into a federation it would be voted down too.

Does that mean the majority of MP's are Nazis?

[oldschooler]

2 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Relax and take a stress pill mate. We're having a measured and civilised discussion here. Don't get so upset. 

Try to avoid emotion & stick to 

 

3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Name any Russian propaganda I have promoted. imo, this propaganda from Kyiv regarding the children is meant for the truly gullible. The problem is that if anyone doubts it then they may also doubt other claims from Ukraine and that is how public support is eroded. As seen in the obvious desire of some to silence any voice that is not 100% on message and in agreement with Kyiv. Post anything deemed to be even slightly anti Ukraine and watch the vitriol flow. 

Because Ukraine understandably tends to get a free pass, except from pro- Russians.

Stop being SO Naive attempting to change human nature which sides with the Innocent Victim.

Why would there be ANY focus on what Ukraine is doing wrong when they are the wronged party fighting for their very SURVIVAL ?

I for one couldn’t care less how savage invading Russian Orcs are Dying , only that they DIE. Russians NOT killing and possibly helping children is not anything to be praised it’s normal Human DUTY by even those savages. 

True Life & War is not a Debate with false equivalence applied.

[dbrenn]

12 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Four times more Nazis in Russia than Ukraine based on general population and extreme nationalism deployed in both nations with much similarity.  

That's a rather funny thing to say. It's as if Ukraine’s (according to you) supposed quarter of the number of Russia's Nazis is somehow acceptable.

It's like saying that stealing a quarter of a million dollars is fine because someone else stole one million. 

In other words, a fallacy. 

[oldschooler]

15 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Relax and take a stress pill mate. We're having a measured and civilised discussion here. Don't get so upset. 

You present mostly a pro- Russian position which I have specifically exposed.
 

You falsely present the bad joke “Minsk” as if it’s some kind of valid Treaty which ONLY programmed pro-Russians do ….huge “tell” at the poker table. You have no counter arguments.

Your daft Harry Enfield Scousers “Calm Down, Calm Down” rhetoric often used by clueless argument - losers

[Rookiescot]

6 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

That's a rather funny thing to say. It's as if Ukraine’s (according to you) supposed quarter of the number of Russia's Nazis is somehow acceptable.

It's like saying that stealing a quarter of a million dollars is fine because someone else stole one million. 

In other words, a fallacy. 

If Czar Putin had wanted to wage war on nazi groups he could have started at home with the Wagner group (Putins private army) or indeed with the many far right groups in Russia.

Belarus seems to have a real problem with far right neo-Nazi organizations. 

But instead he decided to wage a war on a hotbed of nazi ideology which had recently elected a Jewish President and a Jewish Prime Minister.

[oldschooler]

57 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

That's a rather funny thing to say. It's as if Ukraine’s (according to you) supposed quarter of the number of Russia's Nazis is somehow acceptable.

It's like saying that stealing a quarter of a million dollars is fine because someone else stole one million. 

In other words, a fallacy. 

Not at all. <deleted content>

I merely proposed that Nazism was proportionately present to same extent in both nations. I said nothing about its (shameful) nature.
 

It’s a largely irrelevant (2000 Azov in Ukraine Army 440,000) force of human nature everywhere which increases relative to “liberal” policy enaction  or, in tyrannies, govt. sponsorship.

The 40% Le Pen vote in France would be worrying if not clearly recognized as a protest vote against the dire Macron. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by BigHewer
Unnecessary flaming content removed

[oldschooler]

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

If Czar Putin had wanted to wage war on nazi groups he could have started at home with the Wagner group (Putins private army) or indeed with the many far right groups in Russia.

Belarus seems to have a real problem with far right neo-Nazi organizations. 

But instead he decided to wage a war on a hotbed of nazi ideology which had recently elected a Jewish President and a Jewish Prime Minister.

and which lay outside his borders !

[Fester]

3 hours ago, Fanta said:

Who said it is OK to fight battles inside cities? 

Today’s Ukrainian outrage of the day should get your panties in a bunch.

Moscow abducted 200,000 children – Kyiv

“President Zelenskyy says the children are among Ukrainians forcibly taken to Russia and include children from orphanages, children taken with their parents and those separated from their families”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/1/biden-to-meet-nato-chief-as-russia-advances-in-ukraine-liveblog

Do you think this is to fill the ranks of the  Putin Youth? It must be because the Russians also raided the orphanages for the most vulnerable and therefore easiest to brainwash recruits. Cult indoctrination!  Or maybe some of the children are in pro Russian families who voluntarily left Ukraine to go to Russia? No, that’s treason! Or was it a (dare I say the words) humanitarian effort by Russia to take the families & orphaned children out of a war zone and to a place of safety? Of course not, all lies! Russia decided to burden themselves with 200,000 snot bubblers that cannot even load a rifle let alone carry one. Human shields! That must be it! At least they will be well fed with all the stolen wheat they can eat. Oh wait, Russia exports over double the amount of wheat of Ukraine…

Understanding propaganda is so difficult if you think about it. 

Ha! The words humanitarian and Russia don't belong in the same sentence. Pointy hat for Haw Haw.

[Fester]

2 hours ago, dbrenn said:

Britain did sponsor the Al Nusra Front in Syria though, who were an extremist Al Qaeda franchise. Why did Britain back Bin Laden's disciples over the Assad bogeyman (who was actually no threat to us)? This, after we'd toppled the Saddam bogeyman and in doing so reduced Iraq to a cauldron of blood and screams. Work that one out.

Or do we need bogeymen?

No  -  you need to start a new topic then nurture it lovingly.