News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[oldschooler]

19 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

You have to realize that the West has also made this a path where there is NO exit strategy for neither Putin nor the Russian leadership. The moment Russia flinches a little is the moment the path towards "total victory" and "unconditional surrender" will be forged by the West. 

     I really wish Zelensky would have any independent ability to take care of the best of his people now, but this is not something Langley, State department nor EU would accept. Only total destruction and complete neutering if Russia is their offer. Napoleon would offer better peace terms after he took Moscow and I don't even think German high command in 1942 would be much more demanding than the Wet of today.

   Now, Erdogan may be able to shift the tenson here. Maybe he will see the opprtunity to forge statecraft here instead of going for a pure transactional arrangement with NATO. 

   One may hope. 

Erdogans one NATO job was to seal off the Black Sea to naval warships in & out. Job Done. Erdogans a complete backward  joke in the West. Those early Turkey “facilitations” between the parties were just more Putin nonsense. 
Erdogans attempted trickery with new NATO members is sickening & is already being bypassed by the key NATO players.

Again, it is RUSSIA who stepped into the NATO Bear Trap ; it is only RUSSIA who can step out ; what is the West supposed to do, other than what they’ve  done already ? 

Zelenskys ONLY job is to defend his homeland not to be considering unobtainable “peace” with the devil in his back yard Illusory “ peace” is Putins great obvious deception. Zelenskys “ I Think Not” approach is Correct. 

[oldschooler]

7 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Norwegian Pirates from Farsund started the piracy attacks upon British trading ships running French Blockade. 

Found nothing about UK privateers or any raids on coastal Norway. Your Disinformation it appears.

If they existed they would have been in response to Norway Piracy instigated by France. Get your History straight. UK Privateers licensed by UK Govt to seize or sink enemy assets at sea. 

Any “ rape & pillage” against civilians was not sanctioned by UK Govt. and those doing it would be hung. In fact it seems this did not happen.

Get your facts straight and provide Links (from your FSB liar masters no doubt)  especially for serious vile false repeated accusations. 
 

https://en.visitsorlandet.com/farsund-lista/things-to-do/pirate-town/

 

This response is redirected to NorskTiger

[oldschooler]

20 minutes ago, Fester said:

To be fair, Norway has sent Mistral (SHORAD) systems and M72 light anti-armour weapons, plus other non-lethal aid like helmets and body armour. That does not include 2B NOK worth of various other assistance.

Thankyou Norway. 

Thanks Fester. My question marks were intended to draw out Norways actual (minimal but proportionate ) material contribution from the knowledgeable members here.

[EdwardV]

Even as the Kremlin prepares to take full control of the ruins of Mariupol city, it faces the growing prospect of defeat in its bid to conquer all of Ukraine's eastern Donbas because its badly mauled forces lack the manpower for significant advances. ... "I'm deeply skeptical of their prospects" of conquering all of the Donbas, said Michael Kofman, an expert on the Russian military with CNA, a U.S. nonprofit research and analysis organisation."They're dealing with a dramatically weakened force, probably substantially reduced morale. There's a weak desire by officers to keep trying to prosecute offensives and the Russian political leadership on the whole seems to be procrastinating even as it's facing the strategic defeat itself," he said.

"It's going to be a hard fight. There's going to be a hard fight and potentially a long fight. The Russian military hasn’t done well on the offensive, but it doesn't rout or surrender easily either," said Kofman. The influx of Western heavy guns, including scores of U.S. - and some Canadian - M777 howitzers that have longer range than their Russian equivalents, could give Ukraine an edge in a war that has revolved around artillery duels. "The Ukrainians are starting to outrange the Russians. That means they are able to operate without the threat of counter-battery fire from the Russians," said Muzyka. "Don't get me wrong, the Russians still enjoy overall artillery superiority in terms of numbers, but I'm not sure if the same goes for the quality now... This is an artillery war." Muzyka and Kofman said that even if Putin does send more troops, such a move could take months to organise. "It's very clear they're preparing for at least some kind of measures to call up men with prior service experience. But right now, from what I can tell, Putin is just kicking the can down the road and letting the situation within the Russian military actually get worse," Kofman said. "For now," he said, "this is looking like the Russians' last offensive."

Putin takes Mariupol, but wider Donbas victory slipping from reach (msn.com)

Clearly the West needs to get even more artillery into Ukraine

[Fanta]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

Even as the Kremlin prepares to take full control of the ruins of Mariupol city, it faces the growing prospect of defeat in its bid to conquer all of Ukraine's eastern Donbas because its badly mauled forces lack the manpower for significant advances. ... "I'm deeply skeptical of their prospects" of conquering all of the Donbas, said Michael Kofman, an expert on the Russian military with CNA, a U.S. nonprofit research and analysis organisation."They're dealing with a dramatically weakened force, probably substantially reduced morale. There's a weak desire by officers to keep trying to prosecute offensives and the Russian political leadership on the whole seems to be procrastinating even as it's facing the strategic defeat itself," he said.

"It's going to be a hard fight. There's going to be a hard fight and potentially a long fight. The Russian military hasn’t done well on the offensive, but it doesn't rout or surrender easily either," said Kofman. The influx of Western heavy guns, including scores of U.S. - and some Canadian - M777 howitzers that have longer range than their Russian equivalents, could give Ukraine an edge in a war that has revolved around artillery duels. "The Ukrainians are starting to outrange the Russians. That means they are able to operate without the threat of counter-battery fire from the Russians," said Muzyka. "Don't get me wrong, the Russians still enjoy overall artillery superiority in terms of numbers, but I'm not sure if the same goes for the quality now... This is an artillery war." Muzyka and Kofman said that even if Putin does send more troops, such a move could take months to organise. "It's very clear they're preparing for at least some kind of measures to call up men with prior service experience. But right now, from what I can tell, Putin is just kicking the can down the road and letting the situation within the Russian military actually get worse," Kofman said. "For now," he said, "this is looking like the Russians' last offensive."

Putin takes Mariupol, but wider Donbas victory slipping from reach (msn.com)

Clearly the West needs to get even more artillery into Ukraine

Russia is flying 200+ sorties a day. Ukraine is flying 5-10 sorties a day. Ukrainian infrastructure, command posts, equipment depots, supply lines etc etc are getting hit every day. Donbas is an artillery battle however ignoring 200+ missions a day seems disingenuous.

[Fanta]

7 hours ago, EdwardV said:

He continued: “Ukraine’s Armed Forces can arm one million men. One million of armed Ukrainian soldiers should be accepted as a result of the near future.

Armed with pitchforks and riding their trusty tractors into battle. Unless you can arm, integrate and deploy additional troops into the field you may as well not bother. They will be cannon fodder. Any benefit they provide as soldiers will quickly be outweighed by their personal contribution to the fertilizer shortfall.

[Fanta]

4 hours ago, Del_SoL said:

Renault factories confiscated, they continue produce cars under Russian brand. (no right to buyback)

Renault have the option to buy back within 6 years.

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/enault-sells-avtovaz-stake-amid-ukraine-war-sanctions-leaves-room-return

[Fanta]

8 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Still I think the point remains Ukraine is at some point going to start running out of tanks

I think Ukraine’s military command prays to the God of Rain every day. 40 days and 40  nights of downpours and mushy ground would be a wet dream come true for them. 

[EdwardV]

30 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Russia is flying 200+ sorties a day. Ukraine is flying 5-10 sorties a day. Ukrainian infrastructure, command posts, equipment depots, supply lines etc etc are getting hit every day. Donbas is an artillery battle however ignoring 200+ missions a day seems disingenuous.

Considering most of Russian sorties are dropping mostly dumb bombs, that's a lot of misses too. That aside, the US donated some 214K 155mm artillery shells. I remember listening to a pod cast which had Lt General (ret) Ben Hodges on it. He said at the time, the Ukraine army will go through that in about a month. Good thing it's a standard size throughout NATO. Everyone can help with keeping them supplied.   

[Fanta]

5 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Erdogans attempted trickery with new NATO members is sickening & is already being bypassed by the key NATO players.

To be accepted as a NATO member a unanimous vote is needed. The Turk is selling his vote for as much as he can but it is for sale. He will vote for who he is persuaded to vote for. It’s called politics. 

[EdwardV]

29 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Armed with pitchforks and riding their trusty tractors into battle. Unless you can arm, integrate and deploy additional troops into the field you may as well not bother. They will be cannon fodder. Any benefit they provide as soldiers will quickly be outweighed by their personal contribution to the fertilizer shortfall.

It's probably why Ukraine hasn't mobilized the entire male population between the ages of 18-60. I find it hard to believe they can't get about 500K kits out of NATO in the last 2+ months.  Those additional troops are still training:

 

The Ukrainian army appears to be forming a new mechanized infantry unit. The unit’s equipment, training and location—all evident in an official promotional video—are worth noting. The unit is training on mostly donated equipment: ex-Polish T-72M1 tanks, ex-Dutch YPR-765 armored personnel carriers and ex-British and ex-Turkish infantry equipment.

Watch The Ukrainian Army Form A New Brigade With Donated Tanks (msn.com)

Hopefully the same can be said about Russians, but I kinda doubt it. 

[Fanta]

15 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

That aside, the US donated some 214K 155mm artillery shells. 

That’s only useful if the heat actually makes it to the front lines. Russia has been hitting support depots and lines for a while now. Ukraine is shooting off ammo faster than it is being supplied. Uncle Sam better start ranking up production soon. Brazil is delighted. Germany is next to useless. Lose 2 world wars, have your country occupied & split in two and they become pussies 

[Fanta]

14 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

The Ukrainian army appears to be forming a new mechanized infantry unit. The unit’s equipment, training and location—all evident in an official promotional video—are worth noting. The unit is training on mostly donated equipment: ex-Polish T-72M1 tanks, ex-Dutch YPR-765 armored personnel carriers and ex-British and ex-Turkish infantry equipment.

Doesn’t matter so much if it is a hodgepodge of donated stuff as long as it works effectively and can be maintained. The problem is also the wetware directing the trigger pullers. Ukraine’s officer core must already be stretched to the limit and training up existing soldiers to fill necessary command roles won’t happen overnight. Hopefully the Russians will be singing that Milli Vanilli song “Blame it on the rain” in a few months during their tactical withdrawal to the Motherland. Sadly I can’t see them giving up quite so easily. 

[EdwardV]

Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has played down Finland and Sweden's bids to join NATO, saying it makes "no big difference" if they join as they've long-participated in military drills anyway. The comments come after military analysts said Russia had little room to retaliate against the move, given that it wants to avoid a direct confrontation with NATO, and the fact that its forces are fully tied-up in Ukraine.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/05/17/russia-ukraine-live-updates.html

What happen to the threats and retaliation? You know nukes and all that stuff? Now it’s like “whatever” hahaha. That’s what happens when your bluff gets called. Wish some unnamed NATO members (cough, Germany, cough) would learn that lesson. 
 

Oh in other news the US Senate approved the $40B Ukraine aid bill today. Biden will get it tomorrow. Christmas comes early …. 

 

[Fester]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

Russia is flying 200+ sorties a day. Ukraine is flying 5-10 sorties a day. Ukrainian infrastructure, command posts, equipment depots, supply lines etc etc are getting hit every day. Donbas is an artillery battle however ignoring 200+ missions a day seems disingenuous.

Links?

[Fester]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

Armed with pitchforks and riding their trusty tractors into battle. Unless you can arm, integrate and deploy additional troops into the field you may as well not bother. They will be cannon fodder. Any benefit they provide as soldiers will quickly be outweighed by their personal contribution to the fertilizer shortfall.

Sick.

[Fester]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Azov 900 to 2,500 soldiers. 1,000 of them killed or captured in Mariupol. After Putin saying he wants to deNazify Ukraine I think not so many people want to be in Azov Battalion any more. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Photo not from your wiki link. Is that source also anonymous?

[Fester]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

That’s only useful if the heat actually makes it to the front lines. Russia has been hitting support depots and lines for a while now. Ukraine is shooting off ammo faster than it is being supplied. Uncle Sam better start ranking up production soon. Brazil is delighted. Germany is next to useless. Lose 2 world wars, have your country occupied & split in two and they become pussies 

Link less again.

M777's already used at the front last week. Take cover!

https://www.newsweek.com/how-american-m777-howitzers-turning-tide-ukraine-war-russia-1705184

[Transam]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

That’s only useful if the heat actually makes it to the front lines. Russia has been hitting support depots and lines for a while now. Ukraine is shooting off ammo faster than it is being supplied. Uncle Sam better start ranking up production soon. Brazil is delighted. Germany is next to useless. Lose 2 world wars, have your country occupied & split in two and they become pussies 

........."Germany useless".........

You tell me, what Nations were involved in taking down Germany during 1939/45, take your time compiling the list...

PS. Off-topic I know, but so was your comment...

[Transam]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

To be accepted as a NATO member a unanimous vote is needed. The Turk is selling his vote for as much as he can but it is for sale. He will vote for who he is persuaded to vote for. It’s called politics. 

More insider info....?

[Fanta]

Seems as if those Russian sorties are having a serious effect on, at least, Ukraine’s fuel supply. It was 200+ Russian sorties a day in March. Now 300+ a day. Fuel rationing next?

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-removes-fuel-price-restrictions-increase-supply-economy-minister-2022-05-17/

https://www.airforcemag.com/russian-sorties-rise-british-defense-minister-to-meet-austin-as-ukraine-aid-money-runs-low/

[EdwardV]

25 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Seems as if those Russian sorties are having a serious effect on, at least, Ukraine’s fuel supply. It was 200+ Russian sorties a day in March. Now 300+ a day. Fuel rationing next?

Yes and no. Clearly blowing up storage facilities is having a huge impact. It destroyed the Ukrainian flexibility to control prices to limit the damage to the economy and still have plenty of fuel.

However what is limiting supply now is ironically the prices controls. It’s clear from the article lifting the price controls will flood the country with supply. No one is going to take a tanker truck to Poland, load up and bring it back if price controls mean they can’t make enough to cover the cost and risk. No doubt the EU will supply more than enough tanker trucks. Just as there is no doubt plenty of enterprising Ukrainian teamsters are looking to make money. You can fire a cruise missile from the Black Sea or Russia and hit a storage facility. Doing so to a moving truck is horse of a different color. Clearly the price of diesel will go though the roof, but it will be plentiful. 

[oldschooler]

4 hours ago, Fanta said:

Russia is flying 200+ sorties a day. Ukraine is flying 5-10 sorties a day. Ukrainian infrastructure, command posts, equipment depots, supply lines etc etc are getting hit every day. Donbas is an artillery battle however ignoring 200+ missions a day seems disingenuous.

Air sorties don’t win battles or take / hold ground. What air losses are there ? Russians must be getting hit in all those areas too…. and critically Russian arty is outranged so that must be getting hit as well.

Russian Morale, Numbers & Combat Effectiveness (effectiveMESS ?) just aren’t there for a decisive win here.  

 

[oldschooler]

4 hours ago, Fanta said:

To be accepted as a NATO member a unanimous vote is needed. The Turk is selling his vote for as much as he can but it is for sale. He will vote for who he is persuaded to vote for. It’s called politics. 

Turks Selling but Nobody Buying.

Clearly any Vote against Sweden/ Finland joining NATO is already bypassed by direct alliances & existing integration.

West ain’t waiting a year to complete the “paperwork” or overcome veto to commence effective defence of each other ! Note: Turkey are very much NOT “ the West”. 

Russia & Turkey will no doubt complain that NATO did not follow its own “ rules”! Tough. 

Newsflash for the “ you can’t DO that” brigade. National Interest (Survival) always trumps treaties & “rules”.

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

Yes and no. Clearly blowing up storage facilities is having a huge impact. It destroyed the Ukrainian flexibility to control prices to limit the damage to the economy and still have plenty of fuel.

However what is limiting supply now is ironically the prices controls. It’s clear from the article lifting the price controls will flood the country with supply. No one is going to take a tanker truck to Poland, load up and bring it back if price controls mean they can’t make enough to cover the cost and risk. No doubt the EU will supply more than enough tanker trucks. Just as there is no doubt plenty of enterprising Ukrainian teamsters are looking to make money. You can fire a cruise missile from the Black Sea or Russia and hit a storage facility. Doing so to a moving truck is horse of a different color. Clearly the price of diesel will go though the roof, but it will be plentiful. 

Ukraine already videoed hitting Russian moving trucks with laser / spotter- guided howitzer strikes