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Russia v Ukraine - How This Is Going To End


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36 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

They might bash Russia’s use of its planes but not the planes themselves.

Re-read my comment that you replied to. Deriding perceived incorrect usage is what I said, nothing about the actual planes themselves. The fact remains that Ukraine has air defenses. To expect Russia to flit around the Ukrainian air space target hunting is good for Ukraine but a stupid strategy for Russia. 

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22 minutes ago, Fanta said:

You dismiss electronic counter measures as a conspiracy theory, ignore the documented proof of missile malfunctions, never give a thought to human error or bad intel, deny the existence of military resources stationed in or near residential buildings, demand 100% accuracy and instead choose to label every instance as a terror attack

Czar Putin could walk out onto Red Square and kill a kitten and you would be on here giving excuses as to why. Deal with the facts. Residential tower blocks in Kyiv were hit by Russian missiles AGAIN. Either provide evidence to prove one of your theories is correct or just admit the obvious.

 

30 minutes ago, Fanta said:

In other news Russia claims to have evacuated 800 civilians from the Avov chemical plant at Sieverdonetsk after they were left behind by the UAF.

Only you could try and blame the Ukraine for the fact civilians had to seek shelter from RUSSIAN shelling and missile attacks.   

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8 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Localized air superiority? From the third biggest air force in the world? Talk about under performing. Why risk planes? If that’s the point, why send them up at all? You risk the planes to save lives of soldiers and progress the war faster. Oh and no it’s hardly the same job. MANPADs are easy to defeat, all you do is fly higher. The rest of Ukraine’s air defenses you destroy, shouldn’t be nearly as hard if it’s been since Russian know exactly how those systems work. Huge advantage. 

I think we are also not taking into account the benefit of US intelligence into these Ukraine defense vs Russia attack equations. Ukraine air defense operators would likely know when Russian planes begin taxiing on the runway. It is a lot easier to shoot a moving target when you know well in advance that it is coming. 

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2 hours ago, Fanta said:

Be serious. Ukraine’s military losses are a closely guarded secret. For all we know 95% of delivered  Western weapons are destroyed before they get to the front. Or maybe 5% are destroyed before they get to the front. We don’t know. We do know that the supplied weapons are not enough to replace Ukraine’s losses let alone turn the tide. Waiting and hoping for Russia to tire itself out is not a choice. It is an expensive necessity for Ukraine. 

Right back at you. Your entire response is basically one big assumption. Fact is we don’t know any of those thing. 95% to 5%? Nothing like giving yourself some leeway. Tire itself out is one of the oldest and best methods of defense, trading space for time. I think Russia stopped the Germans that way once a long time ago. Seems appropriate. 

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8 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Czar Putin could walk out onto Red Square and kill a kitten and you would be on here giving excuses as to why. Deal with the facts. Residential tower blocks in Kyiv were hit by Russian missiles AGAIN. Either provide evidence to prove one of your theories is correct or just admit the obvious.

Only you could try and blame the Ukraine for the fact civilians had to seek shelter from RUSSIAN shelling and missile attacks.   

Is Putin naked and does he kill the pussycat before or after he bathes in deer antler blood? The things you would do for Zelenskky would make Linda Lovelace blush.  Glad we got out of the way.

Wasting a million dollar missile on a “Shock and Awe” campaign without a follow up makes no sense at all. Deflecting missiles from their targets and claiming collateral damage as the intended target makes sense on many fronts. 
Only you could ignore the consistent retreats by Ukrainian soldiers to areas designated as safe zones for civilians while humanitarian corridors for those same civilians are ignored. This is not the first time this has happened. As Zelensky said “if we don't find a civilized solution," the Ukrainian people "will find a non-civilized solution" to deal with matters. Oops.. I guess his script writer wasn’t there at the time to massage that message. 

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11 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Right back at you. Your entire response is basically one big assumption. Fact is we don’t know any of those thing. 95% to 5%? Nothing like giving yourself some leeway. Tire itself out is one of the oldest and best methods of defense, trading space for time. I think Russia stopped the Germans that way once a long time ago. Seems appropriate. 

Of course everything is one big assumption. By stating 95% & 5% I was highlighting the fact that nearly everything we discuss about this war is based on assumptions. Russia says it hit a training facility and Ukraine says “It’s fine, barely a scratch.” For all we know either half the conscripts were instantly converted to a biodegradable mosaic or the local golf course has a new sandtrap. We are arguing in circles and one thing we can both agree on that is the other guy is partially right and mostly wrong. 

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55 minutes ago, Fanta said:

To expect Russia to flit around the Ukrainian air space target hunting is good for Ukraine but a stupid strategy for Russia. 

Absolutely…. If that’s all Russia was doing. Don’t you think it would be better to be suppressing (read destroy) Ukrainian air defenses? Especially since there are no replacements coming. There were reports early in the war of Russian planes destroying Ukrainian air defenses. Now not so much. Either Russia has found the job too expensive, or they had all the pilots who know that job shot down. Oh wait that’s the same thing. 

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31 minutes ago, Fanta said:

I think we are also not taking into account the benefit of US intelligence into these Ukraine defense vs Russia attack equations. Ukraine air defense operators would likely know when Russian planes begin taxiing on the runway. It is a lot easier to shoot a moving target when you know well in advance that it is coming. 

Of course not, America says they don’t do that stuff. Hahaha joke aside, yes I’m sure that plays a large part - granted. 

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40 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Don’t you think it would be better to be suppressing (read destroy) Ukrainian air defenses?

Of course it would be. “Conan, what is best in life?”  “To crush your enemy, seen them driven before you and to hear the lamentations of their women.” 
However it is risk vs reward/return on investment scenario. Why risk aircraft and expend materiel chasing a seemingly never ending goal whose benefit is negligible. If we use the Ukrainian claims of downed missiles and aircraft against Russia’s claimed successful and Ukraine’s admitted missile strikes then the Ukrainian air defenses aren’t doing such a bang up job at downing Russian stuff in the air nor controlling the skies. Risking multimillion dollar jets to destroy an irritant is an expense only the resource rich would consider paying.

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56 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Wasting a million dollar missile on a “Shock and Awe” campaign without a follow up makes no sense at all.

Russia invading the Ukraine makes no sense at all but you have no issues with that.

Oddly the missile strikes coincided with a G7 meeting. Czar Putin having a little hissy fit because he was not invited.

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Only you could ignore the consistent retreats by Ukrainian soldiers to areas designated as safe zones for civilians while humanitarian corridors for those same civilians are ignored.

Oh here we go again. The Ukrainians are defending their country from a vicious assault by Czar Putin and his thugs. Its really simple. No war means no civilians being shelled which means no sheltering in basements so no need for humanitarian corridors the Russian shell anyway.

Who designates these mythical safe zones anyway?

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3 hours ago, Fanta said:

Be serious. Ukraine’s military losses are a closely guarded secret. For all we know 95% of delivered  Western weapons are destroyed before they get to the front. Or maybe 5% are destroyed before they get to the front. We don’t know. We do know that the supplied weapons are not enough to replace Ukraine’s losses let alone turn the tide. Waiting and hoping for Russia to tire itself out is not a choice. It is an expensive necessity for Ukraine. 

No you don't know, so you should take your own advice and refrain from commenting. What I do know is that the howitzers serve as an illustration; the USA sent 72 modern M777 155 millimetre units. Canada had earlier provided 4 of the same with another 5 scheduled to be sent. Canada and the USA are also sending the heavy trucks to pull them. Norway sent 22 of its M109 155mm tracked self-propelled howitzers and Germany  provided 7 Panzerhaubitze 2000 self propelled 155mm howitzers. Today's news also had the announcement that Canada was rushing out 10 new barrels for its guns. After 2500 rounds, the barrels must be replaced.  The Canadian howitzers were some of the first to be deployed, so if they need new barrels that says they are still being used, and used quite heavily. The Ukrainians have almost already used up the 20,000 rounds the Canadians gave them and it was announced that Canada is trying to buy 100,000 rounds from South Korea who are allegedly trying to get a premium on the sale.

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41 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Why risk aircraft and expend materiel chasing a seemingly never ending goal whose benefit is negligible. If we use the Ukrainian claims of downed missiles and aircraft against Russia’s claimed successful and Ukraine’s admitted missile strikes then the Ukrainian air defenses aren’t doing such a bang up job at downing Russian stuff in the air nor controlling the skies. Risking multimillion dollar jets to destroy an irritant is an expense only the resource rich would consider paying.

I’m guessing the benefit isn’t negligible once you hit air supremacy. I thought the Ukrainian claims were not reliable? Wait I thought Russia was resource rich? 

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6 minutes ago, Vigo said:

No you don't know, so you should take your own advice and refrain from commenting

This is a discussion sharing opinions not a Wikipedia page reading recital. Maybe you should refrain from commenting instead of going off on a tangent from air defense to Western supplied weapons? 

 To summarize your post - some of  the supplied weapons are reaching their overhaul date, their ammo is almost gone, new weapons that match the capabilities of the deployed Russian weapons are slowly arriving and still will not be appearing in sufficient quantities to replace the UAF’s  losses to date while capitalism is restricting the supply of replacement ammunition. Otherwise known as SNAFU <—— Was that the point of your post?

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14 hours ago, dbrenn said:

Jeremy Corbyn? You've lost me.

No doubt....🥴

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4 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

I’m guessing the benefit isn’t negligible once you hit air supremacy. I thought the Ukrainian claims were not reliable? Wait I thought Russia was resource rich? 

Of course not but the price could be higher than the Russians are willing to risk paying. After all if it works don’t fix it. Neither Russian nor Ukrainian claims are reliable however conclusions can be drawn when examining them as one. eg: Russia claims missiles struck military targets in the south and west. Ukraine says 40 missiles launched, 10 destroyed meaning 30 made it through, buildings hit with no casualties. Doesn’t take a video to prove that some stuff got blown up. All resources must be replaced and wealth is a matter of perspective.  A multi millionaire would say Elon Musk is rich, my water delivery guy would say I am rich. 

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Putin is scraping the barrel now, after losing many of his high ranking Generals he has now called up Major General Pavel, now he must have one hell of a military brain because I wouldn't have thought that he could advance or retreat very fast for that matter, unless loaded into a 2 ton dumper.

 

"Pavel is a veteran of Russia's calamitous war in Afghanistan.

A senior intelligence source last night told the newspaper's Sunday edition: “Putin is now scraping the barrel.

“Most of his best and battle-hardened senior commanders have been killed or injured fighting in Ukraine so he is resorting to sending second rate officers to the front who don’t last very long."

j1kbzgyviz391.thumb.jpg.652253bc923cdb43dca0a0dcc0907eb2.jpg

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/obese-retired-russian-general-67-27328697

 

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1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Oddly the missile strikes coincided with a G7 meeting. Czar Putin having a little hissy fit because he was not invited

Whenever Zelenskky can portray any act of aggression against Ukraine as also against Europe or the world he does so. He needs to. The Ukrainian propaganda machine is tuned to this and the benefits are real and tangible. We are told when a puppy dog get scared by shelling in Ukraine because that garners public sympathy which translate to military and financial support. 
Zelenskky’s daily video request to the Make-A-Wish Foundation is for only one thing -  escalation. Does Ukraine have air defenses deployed around Zelenskyy’s favorite bunker in Kyiv? Of course they do. All a target? Most likely. Russia sending missiles to give the bird to the G7? Ludicrous. If Russia wanted to send a message they would bomb one of the weekly EU in Kyiv photoshoots. 

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9 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Putin is scraping the barrel now, after losing many of his high ranking Generals he has now called up Major General Pavel, now he must have one hell of a military brain because I wouldn't have thought that he could advance or retreat very fast for that matter, unless loaded into a 2 ton dumper.

"Pavel is a veteran of Russia's calamitous war in Afghanistan.

A senior intelligence source last night told the newspaper's Sunday edition: “Putin is now scraping the barrel.

“Most of his best and battle-hardened senior commanders have been killed or injured fighting in Ukraine so he is resorting to sending second rate officers to the front who don’t last very long."

j1kbzgyviz391.thumb.jpg.652253bc923cdb43dca0a0dcc0907eb2.jpg

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/obese-retired-russian-general-67-27328697

lol.. everything is big in Russia. No fat shaming the soon to be targeted. That will be one big bullseye. 

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30 minutes ago, Transam said:

No doubt....🥴

Same to you 

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12 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Whenever Zelenskky can portray as an act of aggression against Ukraine as also against Europe or the world he does so. He needs to. The Ukrainian propaganda machine is tuned to this and the benefits are real and tangible. We are told when a puppy dog get scared by shelling in Ukraine because that garners public sympathy which translate to military and financial support. 
Zelenskky’s daily video request to the Make-A-Wish Foundation is for only one thing -  escalation. Does Ukraine have air defenses deployed around Zelenskyy’s favorite bunker in Kyiv? Of course they do. All a target? Most likely. Russia sending missiles to give the bird to the G7? Ludicrous. If Russia wanted to send a message they would bomb one of the weekly EU in Kyiv photoshoots. 

You've got to hand it to Zelensky: coming from showbiz he's good at propaganda, which is one of the many weapons of war. We've had the whole range of scare and sympathy tactics paraded by our corporate media as irrefutable fact. 

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Locked temporarily.

A large number of bickering/baiting and/or off-topic posts have been removed and as a result of this and the long running nature of the topic, we shall move the entire thread to Expat Chat.

All participants may continue the dialogue and the same rules will apply as if this thread remained in the News section.

Please observe the FG's and avoid personal attacks or abuse of other members.

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5 hours ago, Fanta said:

You are choosing to ignore Ukraine’s 300’x S-300’s.

I’m thinking they have a lot less now as they have been hitting up the US for more anti aircraft batteries:

The US plans to announce as soon as this week that it has purchased an advanced, medium-to-long range surface-to-air missile defense system for Ukraine, a source familiar with the announcement tells CNN. 

In response to requests by Ukrainian forces, other military assistance is also likely to be announced this week, including additional artillery ammunition and counter-battery radars. Ukrainian officials have asked for the missile defense system, known as a NASAMS system, given the weapons can hit targets more than 100 miles away, though the Ukrainian forces will likely need to be trained on the systems, a source said.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/06/26/politics/us-missile-defense-system-ukraine-coming-announcement/index.html

For what it’s worth, Wikipedia stated Ukraine had 100 S-300 batteries at the start of the war. 

 

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14 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

I’m thinking they have a lot less now as they have been hitting up the US for more anti aircraft batteries 

This is one of the things I do not understand about these weapon supplies. Why does Ukraine and crew feel the need to announce every weapon request, donation and the estimated delivery date? I’d keep it a secret if I needed/wanted another zillion suicide drones and let the Russians figure it out for themselves when they are under attack by swarms of drones.

The budget is approved so just get on with it, buy all the stuff asap, deploy it and go back for more money.

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32 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

You've got to hand it to Zelensky: coming from showbiz he's good at propaganda, which is one of the many weapons of war. We've had the whole range of scare and sympathy tactics paraded by our corporate media as irrefutable fact. 

Zelensky first graduated as a lawyer before deciding to go into entertainment, so why don't the Putin apologists ever mention this, could it be that it doesn't fit into their continuous sarcastic drivel, the guy is obviously very intelligent and has done more with his life than most of us put together. So my question to you is why do you people mock and scorn a man with such charisma and drive that Zelensky obviously has.

Some people on here must live a very dull life if all they can do is to knock a man that is trying to save his country, your mockery should be directed at the person that is responsible for all this death, destruction and a lot more heinous acts committed by the Russian thugs of an army.

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