Russia v Ukraine - How This Is Going To End

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Be serious, man. Not everyone is pro Russian in the disputed regions and some people regardless of affiliation just won’t move. Look at all the civilians that refuse to move from cities that are directly in the path of an upcoming artillery barrage. Dismissing civilians with a “They deserve it because of their own inaction”  is being as compassionate as a Russian artillery gunner.

Their Choice & Potential Consequences

”Deserve”  your word ..and got nothing to do with it.

16 million unoccupied Ukrainians decided to move ….. and stayed alive.

[Faraday]

Two posts removed.

One for being insulting.

One that quoted the post.

Moderator

[Rookiescot]

Sadly for Czar Putin its over. The EU is guaranteed to accept its application to join. Its all gone wrong for Czar Putin.

His lifespan is now measured in hours. 

 

[snapdragon]

9 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Sadly for Czar Putin its over. The EU is guaranteed to accept its application to join. Its all gone wrong for Czar Putin.

His lifespan is now measured in hours. 

This is news indeed Mr Rookiescot.

Is this the end of the conflict?

[Rookiescot]

Just now, snapdragon said:

This is news indeed Mr Rookiescot.

Is this the end of the conflict?

Its the end for Czar Putin. 

NATO cannot commit troops or aircraft or any other assets under its charter but the EU can.

[RedBirdy]

Its crazy to see how many people live in fantasy land, thinking their fanciful  comments will add to the Ukranian war effort or change reality. give it a rest

[Fanta]

5 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Its the end for Czar Putin. 

NATO cannot commit troops or aircraft or any other assets under its charter but the EU can.

Applying isn’t the biggest problem. The problem is that it can take years or even decades to actually be approved as a member of the EU. It This approval requires agreement by all 27 current EU members. I doubt the process will be easy for arguably one of the poorest and most corrupt countries in Europe that is also currently at war. The military and economic costs alone of supporting Ukraine might sink the application let alone the burden of actually passing the necessary due diligence. This is not the short term solution Ukraine hopes it could be. 

[Fanta]

Is the push on for peace talks? the leaders of Germany, France and Italy are all heading to Kyiv in June to discuss “something”’ with Zelenskyy. imo, one element of this “very specific thing” is likely to be Zelenskky’s unrealistic pre-conditions for peace talks such as returning Crimea. What else could it be? 

“Speaking previously about a potential trip to Kyiv, Scholz said: “I won’t join a group of people who go in and out for a quick photo opportunity. Instead, when I do, it’s always for a very specific thing.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/jun/11/russia-ukraine-war-latest-news-putin-zelenskiy-live 

[Transam]

8 hours ago, RedBirdy said:

Its crazy to see how many people live in fantasy land, thinking their fanciful  comments will add to the Ukranian war effort or change reality. give it a rest

Oh, hello................

[KaptainRob]

9 hours ago, RedBirdy said:

Its crazy to see how many people live in fantasy land, thinking their fanciful  comments will add to the Ukranian war effort or change reality. give it a rest

A number of TT Members with a certain amount of common sense and higher intelligence enjoy debating issues and provide interesting data and commentary for a large number of others.  

You might learn something from them instead of posting nonsense.

[oldschooler]

5 hours ago, Fanta said:

Applying isn’t the biggest problem. The problem is that it can take years or even decades to actually be approved as a member of the EU. It This approval requires agreement by all 27 current EU members. I doubt the process will be easy for arguably one of the poorest and most corrupt countries in Europe that is also currently at war. The military and economic costs alone of supporting Ukraine might sink the application let alone the burden of actually passing the necessary due diligence. This is not the short term solution Ukraine hopes it could be. 

Not a snowballs chance in hell …..

off the charts corruption, broken, wrecked, vetoed, unclear borders, war potential, reconstruction cost etc etc …. Yet one wonders how barely civilized Balkans-type countries ever got in…..Romania , Bulgaria.

[oldschooler]

4 hours ago, Fanta said:

Is the push on for peace talks? the leaders of Germany, France and Italy are all heading to Kyiv in June to discuss “something”’ with Zelenskyy. imo, one element of this “very specific thing” is likely to be Zelenskky’s unrealistic pre-conditions for peace talks such as returning Crimea. What else could it be? 

“Speaking previously about a potential trip to Kyiv, Scholz said: “I won’t join a group of people who go in and out for a quick photo opportunity. Instead, when I do, it’s always for a very specific thing.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/jun/11/russia-ukraine-war-latest-news-putin-zelenskiy-live 

Scholtz being the chief ineffective EU foot- dragger before getting his lame arse booted into gear by Ukraine, Public Opinion & UK example. Would have been content to see Ukraine burn to maintain Russian energy supplycredibility factor 2/10 at best.

[oldschooler]

57 minutes ago, KaptainRob said:

A number of TT Members with a certain amount of common sense and higher intelligence enjoy debating issues and provide interesting data and commentary for a large number of others.  

You might learn something from them instead of posting nonsense.

Split on this one Rob tbh,

some of us indeed might be easily perceived by topic newcomers to be “ fancifully” arguing & deciding best outcomes from our armchairs…. so the post was perhaps like a wake up call or bucket of cold water in the face

However your point of free open informed debate is also well taken.

As a “hawk” here I have nevertheless learned much from a handful of rational informed articulate posters.

[Pinetree]

On 6/7/2022 at 8:05 PM, Freeduhdumb said:

Russia has only invaded Ukraine out of total necessity.

You lost the whole of your argument with that one sentence  .  War, genocide of civilians, by megalomaniacs criminals like Putin and his cohort, cannot be justified in that way.  Yes, history is relevant, and Ukraine has never been snowy white in this regard, but the present is more so.  The War cannot be justified in any rational way and it must end with the humiliation of the Putin regime and a final wake up call for the Russian peoples to throw off their subservient,  peasant past and get with the rest of the democratic world. If that takes the more active participation of NATO, then so be it.  Its been a long time coming, since the end of WW2,  but Russia must be sorted out, one way or another. 

[oldschooler]

2 hours ago, Pinetree said:

You lost the whole of your argument with that one sentence  .  War, genocide of civilians, by megalomaniacs criminals like Putin and his cohort, cannot be justified in that way.  Yes, history is relevant, and Ukraine has never been snowy white in this regard, but the present is more so.  The War cannot be justified in any rational way and it must end with the humiliation of the Putin regime and a final wake up call for the Russian peoples to throw off their subservient,  peasant past and get with the rest of the democratic world. If that takes the more active participation of NATO, then so be it.  Its been a long time coming, since the end of WW2,  but Russia must be sorted out, one way or another. 

But never was & never will be sorted.other than a root & branch western reform after occupation from losing war or collapse. as done for Germany & Japan, although that only worked as those people were highly intelligent & somewhat cultured / civilized whereas Russians clearly Not. 

Russians would have no idea not a clue with what to replace the Strong tyrant leader with. Been clueless serfs / slaves Entire 1000 year history. Defeated Germany ONLY with Western Material & Human Waves;  25 million Dead.

Advanced Culture like Literature , Dance, Music & Science but only for the top 1% until Communism Wrecked even that. 

[oldschooler]

Just now, oldschooler said:

But never was & never will be sorted.other than a root & branch western reform after occupation from losing war or collapse. as done for Germany & Japan, although that only worked as those people were highly intelligent & somewhat cultured / civilized whereas Russians clearly Not. 

Russians would have no idea not a clue with what to replace the Strong tyrant leader with. Been clueless serfs / slaves Entire 1000 year history. Defeated Germany ONLY with Western Material & Human Waves;  25 million Dead.

Advanced Culture like Literature , Dance, Music & Science but only for the top 1% until Communism Wrecked even that. 

Best “sort out”  that I can envisage would be to simply reduce it to a disarmed economic resource for West. 
After four educated generations of that could join West as Civilized Free People & Nation. Ukraine War a step in that right direction. 

[Fanta]

2 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Best “sort out”  that I can envisage would be to simply reduce it to a disarmed economic resource for West. 

What about the Untermensch? (where have I heard that before??) 

[oldschooler]

6 minutes ago, Fanta said:

What about the Untermensch? (where have I heard that before??) 

Absurd. Quote the whole of my argument  …. I said nothing about Nazi treatment they already receive  from their elite )complete with Labour camps & FSB gestapo terror )& concluded to liberate & absorb them into the free west ……not continue their current slave status imposed by their own “ divine czar” rulers for last 1000 years.

[Fanta]

33 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Absurd. Quote the whole of my argument  …. I said nothing about Nazi treatment they already receive  from their elite )complete with Labour camps & FSB gestapo terror )& concluded to liberate & absorb them into the free west ……not continue their current slave status imposed by their own “ divine czar” rulers for last 1000 years.

My apologies. I snipped your comment for brevity not to dilute it’s meaning. You propose turning Russia into an economic resource for the betterment of the West and judged at least the next 3 generations unfit for integration into your idea of global society. Yet you take offense with me comparing your idea of how to “handle” Russia and Russians to the stated goals of a certain angry Austrian that became a crispy critter 75 years ago when on the surface they are quite similar. The Cold War ended a mere 30 years ago when they were a pack of commies queuing for a loaf of bread. Now they earn $1billion a day revenue just from energy  exports, are becoming less isolated by the day than China has during the same period and are generally coming along in leaps and bounds. The whole war thing is a bit of a setback however in the grand scheme of things a regional conflict with less than 100,000 dead is hardly reason enough to drive Russia back to the bad old days when nuclear bunkers were in vogue. Putin will not live forever. Change will come. Patience Grasshopper, patience. 

[vlad]

After many posts on this thread, what have we concluded? We all understand Putin invaded another Country with a lame excuse of liberating the citizens of that country. His liberating technique was to send in Death squads to rape and kill the people he was " Liberating " he is targeting cities and towns killing civilians be it Theatres hospitals Cinemas shopping centers all civilian infrastructure. This is a guy that unleashed a chemical attack on UK soil and attempted to kill another opponent by poisoning him in Germany. These are the only ones that have come to light. He is and still is committing war crimes and Genocide we can now also see he is in breach of the Geneva convention. To top it all off he is now forcing thousands around the world into starvation by blockading ships that could prevent this. The appeasers on this forum will blame Ukraine saying there mining the port exits yet they have not produced evidence of this. We though have evidence that Putin is stealing grain and transporting it back to Russia in Bulk carriers and lorries overland. So we can accuse him of being a thief too. Do we in the west let him carry on doing this or do we come to the aid of Ukraine? 

[Fanta]

Here we go again…

Hundreds trapped in Severodonetsk plant

“Some 800 people are trapped underneath the Azot industrial zone in the besieged eastern city as Russia refuses to negotiate safe passage of fighters.”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/11/russia-ukraine-live-civilians-trapped-in-severodonetsk-factory-liveblog

 

[snapdragon]

18 minutes ago, vlad said:

After many posts on this thread, what have we concluded? We all understand Putin invaded another Country with a lame excuse of liberating the citizens of that country. His liberating technique was to send in Death squads to rape and kill the people he was " Liberating " he is targeting cities and towns killing civilians be it Theatres hospitals Cinemas shopping centers all civilian infrastructure. This is a guy that unleashed a chemical attack on UK soil and attempted to kill another opponent by poisoning him in Germany. These are the only ones that have come to light. He is and still is committing war crimes and Genocide we can now also see he is in breach of the Geneva convention. To top it all off he is now forcing thousands around the world into starvation by blockading ships that could prevent this. The appeasers on this forum will blame Ukraine saying there mining the port exits yet they have not produced evidence of this. We though have evidence that Putin is stealing grain and transporting it back to Russia in Bulk carriers and lorries overland. So we can accuse him of being a thief too. Do we in the west let him carry on doing this or do we come to the aid of Ukraine? 

Very strongly written post Mr Vlad.

Russia did invade the Donbass, with a 'special humanitarian operation', to liberate the many thousands of Ukrainians that were subject to attacks from the Nazi battalions.

He had two major aims. Both of which have not yet been accomplished.

As for ",,,,'death squads to rape and kill,,,,,.". Too much western propaganda has worked on you. Befuddled you even.

This ",,,,,chemical attack on UK soil,,," Would you be referring to the Skripals by any chance?

I was under the impression that we (the west) have come to the aid of Ukraine. Weapons, intelligence and fighters. You seem to be wanting the west to get even more involved Mr Vlad.

[BigHewer]

25 minutes ago, vlad said:

After many posts on this thread, what have we concluded?

I for one have concluded that it’s an extremely polarizing issue and no amount of evidence presented by either side will ever sway the other. Still, it’s very entertaining reading the attempts to do so!

It also seems that both sides have underestimated the resolve of the other. The Ukraine is a tougher nut to crack than our dear friend Mr. Putin imagined. Likewise, the Russian military isn’t as hapless as the MSM would have us believe. 

A couple of days ago, Putin spoke of Russia’s seizure of Swedish territory over 300 years ago. He spoke of a 21-year struggle to claim those lands, despite condemnation and outrage in much of Europe. I think this if anything signals Russian resolve. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna32909

How long will Russia’s adversaries stay committed to helping Ukraine?

 

Edited June 12 by BigHewer
Link added

[vlad]

Why the need for Bold print Snap just a reminder and evidence of the death squads in Action not in my befuddled mind.

 

[Rookiescot]

12 minutes ago, snapdragon said:

As for ",,,,'death squads to rape and kill,,,,,.". Too much western propaganda has worked on you. Befuddled you even.

So I should believe you and your Russian propaganda rather than my own eyes?

We saw drone footage of civilians being killed. We saw footage of the towns and villages being recaptured from Czar Putins thugs and the bodies littering the streets.