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Russia v Ukraine - How This Is Going To End


Pinetree
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3 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

The West continues to be perfectly content to drag the current situation  in Ukraine out for as long as it takes to get what they want. If the West had had ANY sincere commitment to either the Minsk Accords or to peace in Ukraine, it would have long ago forced Kiev to enter into direct negotiations with the recognized breakaway republics of LPR and DPR in Donbass and to implement all the aspects of the Minsk Accords. It hasn't done so because it knows that a federated Ukrainian state, as envisaged by the Minsk agreement, would never support joining NATO as this would be vetoed by the Donbass. A federal Ukraine would also never join the EU, which demanded back in 2013, as a condition of doing business with Ukraibe, that Ukraine not participate in the Eurasian trading block. With that demand, the EU deliberately violated the Budapest Memorandum (its Article 3, prohibiting the use of economic blackmail for geopolitical ends), the only international legal document that guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity. It was for his refusal to sign on to that EU bit of geopolitical extortion that Yanukovich had to be removed from power by the west in a coup de tat, regime change operation back in 2014. That regime change operation, and failure to fully implement those Minsk accords, is in fact what has set all of the events in motion that have lead up to our present situation. Now that the "West" has forced the hand of Russia... we are now witnessing the effects of REAL war. The only question now is, will the West continue to push this into a wider war mutually assured destruction. That is not hyperbole, the Neocons in Washington D.C. actually think they can win a nuclear conflict.  

Western “force” all in Putins imagination. NATO have certainly manipulated Putin into invading Ukraine, by simply following their own Charter.

So what if that stops Putin invading other nations. That’s The Point !

Putin “doesn’t like it “… Tough. 😩
But don’t humiliate your nation by stupidly claiming NATO will invade your pathetic tyrannical dirthole,but nuclear armed, country 🤣🤣with zero hard evidence of that 😞😩….and THEN invade …..😡

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4 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

The West continues to be perfectly content to drag the current situation  in Ukraine out for as long as it takes to get what they want.

What is it the west wants? Clearly it can't be the destruction of Russia since the US and UK refuse to allow their weapons to be used in attacking Russia proper. In addition you have western nations like France, Italy and Germany talking about the need for Ukraine to appease Russia in any peace deal. 

I fail to see how the west is dragging out the conflict. That is unless you wish to believe it's just by giving defensive weapons to Ukraine in the first place. Heaven forbid democracies help one another when attacked by authoritarian nations. No doubt Russia would love for that to stop, makes their job of subjugation so much easier. Whether or not Ukraine want's that is meaningless right? 

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14 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

The plan has been to take control of Russia, regime change as was conducted in Ukraine... Biden, the alzeihmer's patient let the plan slip. 

Good story, doesn't make sense. History has shown authoritarian regimes fall from within, not from outside sources. The only way that makes sense is if the west somehow forced Russia to attack Ukraine, and gave the Ukrainians the weapons to invade and conquer Russia. The first didn't happen, the second would be the tail wagging the dog. 

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5 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Good story, doesn't make sense. History has shown authoritarian regimes fall from within, not from outside sources. The only way that makes sense is if the west somehow forced Russia to attack Ukraine, and gave the Ukrainians the weapons to invade and conquer Russia. The first didn't happen, the second would be the tail wagging the dog. 

Have you ever looked into the mindset, the ideology of William (Bill) Kristol, Julia Nuland, her husband Robert Kagan et. al, the neocons in Washington? They're psychopathic. 

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6 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Have you ever looked into the mindset, the ideology of William (Bill) Kristol, Julia Nuland, her husband Robert Kagan et. al, the neocons in Washington? They're psychopathic. 

Honestly few pay attention to them anymore. The so theory of liberal internationalism doesn't work in an world where populations are declining and globalism is over. The last US president who followed this theory was daddy Bush. 

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6 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Honestly few pay attention to them anymore. The so theory of liberal internationalism doesn't work in an world where populations are declining and globalism is over. The last US president who followed this theory was daddy Bush. 

Oops. I meant psychopath Victoria Nuland... you should pay attention as she is currently again U.S. undersecretary of State

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On 6/6/2022 at 8:48 PM, oldschooler said:

Right. That sacking certainly wouldn’t have happened in Russia though would it ? making baseless claims is part of the job in such Russian role. 🤣

Replace the 'happened in Russia" with "happened in the USA" really , No one was sacked for the Afghanistan debarkle, the inflation debarkle, the fuel cost debarkle, or the supply chain debarkle, All of those people are still in their jobs, At least in Ukraine they can sack the people caught lying.🙂

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47 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Oops. I meant psychopath Victoria Nuland... you should pay attention as she is currently again U.S. undersecretary of State

She actually the undersecretary for political affairs, that's the #4 at the State department. She's also the one who said the US was sending HIMARs to Ukraine two months ago only to have the DOD refute that the next day. Truthfully she's a political hack who isn't as smart as she thinks she is. The only surprising thing about her is she's a globalist who is working for a isolationist president. Clearly her idealism isn't standing in the way of her ego.  

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11 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

After the West's engineered coup de tat, regime change operation

Where is the evidence for that?

11 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

the subsequent Minsk agreements were never fully implemented by the west

They were never fully implemented by Russia and the regions under its control either but you always ignore that.

11 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Russia is on par with other leading nations in weapons development. If Russia wanted to do what you what you describe... it would have bombed every command military center and major force encampments right from the start... they haven't.

Evidently thats not true given the western supplied weapons are vastly outperforming the Russian equivalents. 

11 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Seriously... you don't have a clue what is actually going on there. I DO

No you believe in conspiracy theories. 

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18 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

conspiracy theories

Going to trot that one out... Why am I not surprised. 

How about this one... If the west doesn't find a way to settle this, if they keep pushing for war in Ukraine by sending in weapons that can strike Russian soil, then all bets are off.. Russia's clearly stated "Red Lines" will be breached. Anyone reading this can go look up another Conspiracy Theory being warned about by Russian officials for months now, such as Medvedev and Lavrov... that key "decision making centers" outside of Ukraine will be targeted. And they won't be using simple long range rocket systems. The world is again on the brink of a Nuclear WW3 scenario... How about that for a Conspiracy Theory friend. You people don't have a clue what  is coming. Don't take my word for it... go look up their public statements. 

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51 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Where is the evidence for that?

Check out the flags in the background of this puff piece. from back in 2014

 

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1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

They were never fully implemented by Russia and the regions under its control either but you always ignore that.

LOL.

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7 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Have you ever looked into the mindset, the ideology of William (Bill) Kristol, Julia Nuland, her husband Robert Kagan et. al, the neocons in Washington? They're psychopathic. 

You just don't like the USA, it is soooooooooo obvious it is laughable. You'll give yourself a heart attack, chap....🤒

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1 minute ago, Transam said:

You just don't like the USA, it is soooooooooo obvious it is laughable. You'll give yourself a heart attack, chap....🤒

Lol. I'm having too much fun reading all of you comment here, about things you have no idea about... 

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8 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Part of your problem is you have not taken into account that the illegal invasion occurred back in 2014... the war began with the illegal over throw of Yanukovych. The current conflict was set in motion with that coup de tat, regime change operation by America. This isn't hating America it's about looking at the facts... historical and otherwise. And once, again, the West has never been interested in Peace in Ukraine, if they had been they wouldn't have created this proxy war in the first place and would have fully implemented the Minsk Agreements instead of operating a CIA covert war thrusting the conflict where it is today. 

https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-secret-cia-training-program-in-ukraine-helped-kyiv-prepare-for-russian-invasion-090052743.html

FYI, I do not have a problem, but let's get the boot in early eh, you wouldn't have these disturbing views if you were not an ultra pro Putin apologist. 

You are believing what the Russian state media is telling you, and why would you do that one has to ask ones-self, would it have anything to do with your hatred of the US which I have noted you have broadened your horizons and now included all the West. It is a sick belief you hold there when it is obvious to everybody but not to haters that it is the Russians who are the aggressors here, sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting 'I can' t hear you' will not change this fact. 

As for the 2014 that was another conflict started by the Russians under the guise of freeing its people, the only way that Russia knows how to liberate people is to kill them and flatten their cities, do not try and blame the US nor the West all fault lies with the Russians and the excuses you come out with to point the blame at everybody else is quite farcical but very expected. 

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9 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Part of your problem is you have not taken into account that the illegal invasion occurred back in 2014... the war began with the illegal over throw of Yanukovych. The current conflict was set in motion with that coup de tat, regime change operation by America. This isn't hating America it's about looking at the facts... historical and otherwise. And once, again, the West has never been interested in Peace in Ukraine, if they had been they wouldn't have created this proxy war in the first place and would have fully implemented the Minsk Agreements instead of operating a CIA covert war thrusting the conflict where it is today. 

https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-secret-cia-training-program-in-ukraine-helped-kyiv-prepare-for-russian-invasion-090052743.html

You claim to be looking at facts, yet the article you attached seems to make no mention of "that coup de tat, regime change operation by America". Troops etc from different countries regularly train other troops in both peace and wartimes. Are we to assume all such efforts are intended "regime change" or just the ones from countries you don't appear to like.

In my opinion, if such statements are going to be made they should be backed up with evidence otherwise they are no better than any propaganda. Can you supply us with any actual factual evidence of your claim or is it actually just supposition?

Or is it just another case of "America bashing"? This seems to be quite an involved and popular sport at the moment by many, not just on this Forum, between this and the gun debates, partisan politics etc. Not that they don't probably deserve it in many cases!

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1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Evidently thats not true given the western supplied weapons are vastly outperforming the Russian equivalents. 

Can you supply us with any actual factual evidence of this happening?

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1 hour ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Going to trot that one out... Why am I not surprised. 

How about this one... If the west doesn't find a way to settle this, if they keep pushing for war in Ukraine by sending in weapons that can strike Russian soil, then all bets are off.. Russia's clearly stated "Red Lines" will be breached. Anyone reading this can go look up another Conspiracy Theory being warned about by Russian officials for months now, such as Medvedev and Lavrov... that key "decision making centers" outside of Ukraine will be targeted. And they won't be using simple long range rocket systems. The world is again on the brink of a Nuclear WW3 scenario... How about that for a Conspiracy Theory friend. You people don't have a clue what  is coming. Don't take my word for it... go look up their public statements. 

Again we will disagree. I think that the world perfectly understands the implications, especially the nuclear one.

I would suggest it is the one thing holding NATO countries, the US and other countries back from sending in either better weapons or even their own forces to kick Russia's butt back to the stone age. And I would hazard the Russians know it too and hence why they mention threats so often in their public statements!

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1 hour ago, Freeduhdumb said:

If the west doesn't find a way to settle this, if they keep pushing for war in Ukraine by sending in weapons that can strike Russian soil,

How about Russia finds a way of solving this by leaving the Ukraine?

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14 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Can you supply us with any actual factual evidence of this happening?

No, because I can't be bothered. You however can use google and educate yourself. 

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39 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

Check out the flags in the background of this puff piece. from back in 2014

Thats evidence the "west" organized a coup in the Ukraine?

Dont seem very convincing to me.

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12 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Lol. I'm having too much fun reading all of you comment here, about things you have no idea about... 

You're having fun, well I know you are, that is the sad part, but you are not alone, there will always be a fruitcake brigade at times like these.

You keep saying we have no idea, unfortunately you cannot see my, and zillions around the world, that do not like seeing the mass murder of Ukraine citizens.

YOU, and a few others here, are OK with the slaughter, you are having your fun as keyboard warriors, which is obvious too.... 

Oh, and once again, bravo Switzerland, never thought I would see the day they would show their disgust at Russian aggression...Strange, you don't mention any other country than the USA.....😋

Finland and Sweden, have had enough of the clown and his communist longings, the picture out there is that you are wrong, Comrade.....🤗......

But if you want to go back to counting how many cabbages you can grow, you can do that now....Comrade.....🧑‍🌾

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17 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Can you supply us with any actual factual evidence of this happening?

Actually all the past discussion on the size and superiority of the Russian armed forces, how they will sweep to victory etc, yet are so slow moving, indicates one of three likely scenarios:

(1) The Ukrainian fighters using similar equipment to the Russians are just more into the fight, have better tactics and make use of Russian designed weapons better.

or

(2) The western arms supplied to the Ukrainians are proving to be decisively better than what Russia is bringing to the fight and hence give them an unexpected improvement in their defence against a larger sized force.

or 

(3) It is a combination of (1) and (2)

To me it is likely the third option providing an unexpected level of fight against the Russians.

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2 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Actually all the past discussion on the size and superiority of the Russian armed forces, how they will sweep to victory etc, yet are so slow moving, indicates one of three likely scenarios:

(1) The Ukrainian fighters using similar equipment to the Russians are just more into the fight, have better tactics and make use of Russian designed weapons better.

or

(2) The western arms supplied to the Ukrainians are proving to be decisively better than what Russia is bringing to the fight and hence give them an unexpected improvement in their defence against a larger sized force.

or 

(3) It is a combination of (1) and (2)

To me it is likely the third option providing an unexpected level of fight against the Russians.

I would agree with 1). The Ukrainians are putting up a hell of a fight.  The Western supplied weapons are helping however with the real losses of both sides unknown it is difficult to determine the costs incurred by the attackers or the defenders. The claim that Western weapons are vastly outperforming Russian weapons isn’t proven by territorial gains or the clamoring of social media, the latter of which seem to be the main criteria used by some to determine who is winning this war. 

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