Russia v Ukraine - How This Is Going To End

[Transam]

23 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Hungary and Italy are calling for a ceasefire and peace talks. The US Defense Secretary called for a ceasefire 2 weeks ago. The Donbas region is Ukraine’s strongest defensive area and if that falls then Zelenskyy will have to make the decision to either actively engage in peace talks or keep losing ground, men and equipment every day.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-cracks-widen-over-ukraine-italy-hungary-urge-truce-2022-05-25/ 

In the meantime, the best the BBC can do to promote the fake news that Ukraine is winning is to recycle a 2-3 week old Sky News article about 137 dead Russian soldiers on a refrigerated train. 
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61571855

"The BBC is promoting fake news", tell me how they are promoting fake news, fake means lies, so expand on your accusation that the BBC is telling lies...?

[Fanta]

3 minutes ago, Transam said:

"The BBC is promoting fake news", tell me how they are promoting fake news, fake means lies, so expand on your accusation that the BBC is telling lies...?

Find the word surrender in this article. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61472025

The BBC’s reporting on this conflict is neither unbiased nor objective. It is biased and subjective which is OK for opinion pieces but far from OK for factual news reporting. Anyone would think the UK itself was at war the way Kyiv’s propaganda is being regurgitated without it being questioned first. The use of euphemisms, promotion of Russian losses and minimizing of Ukrainian losses shows a clear bias and implies the message that Ukraine is winning which is clearly not the case. Fake AF. 

[oldschooler]

12 hours ago, Chatogaster said:

There's quite a lot of overlap between your post and the one you replied to.

The West is defending itself pre-emptively, in reaction to Russia's initiation of a war, as a pre-emptive defense in reaction to a Western expansion, in reaction to Russia's power, in reaction to …

In the overall scheme, there are a lot of "details" like who invaded whom first or who is committing the most war-atrocities or who has the largest number of Nazi's per capita or who has the superior ideology. I think it is impossible to be objective enough to decide who is "right" once and for all. Personally, the West/NATO get my support and I agree with their objective in the "match" that is being played. But it's still very comparable to apes from opposite sides fighting in the banana plantation on their shared border. 10E6 years of evolution since and still hardly any progress :-(

It’s a pretty clear Good vs. Evil struggle isn’t it ? Democracy vs. Gangsterism “ ideology” is not a difficult choice for any rational mind with a working moral compass.

[Transam]

5 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Find the word surrender in this article. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61472025

The BBC’s reporting on this conflict is neither unbiased nor objective. It is biased and subjective which is OK for opinion pieces but far from OK for factual news reporting. Anyone would think the UK itself was at war the way Kyiv’s propaganda is being regurgitated without it being questioned first. The use of euphemisms, promotion of Russian losses and minimizing of Ukrainian losses shows a clear bias and implies the message that Ukraine is winning which is clearly not the case. Fake AF. 

......More guesswork, that is YOUR assumption not fact, the BBC will report on what they have, but you know better......Well you are there on the ground, eh.....

[Fanta]

36 minutes ago, Transam said:

......More guesswork, that is YOUR assumption not fact, the BBC will report on what they have, but you know better......Well you are there on the ground, eh.....

The BBC, and all news outlets, choose what to report. Their access to information from numerous sources is far, far greater than the general public has. BBC’s choice on what to report is clearly biased towards Ukraine. Anyone can see that. 

I am not there on the ground. I am standing on the outside looking in.

[Transam]

8 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The BBC, and all news outlets, choose what to report. Their access to information from numerous sources is far, far greater than the general public has. BBC’s choice on what to report is clearly biased towards Ukraine. Anyone can see that. 

I am not there on the ground. I am standing on the outside looking in.

No, you see from on the outside sifting to see what you want to see, comrade...

[BigHewer]

No mention of Russia or Ukraine at all in the last Fox News bulletin. In addition to all the gun-related stories, there was a even a spot on Bruce Willis’s medical condition.

Nothing to report, or is Russia/Ukraine being quietly ushered to one side?

[Marble-eye]

20 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The BBC, and all news outlets, choose what to report. Their access to information from numerous sources is far, far greater than the general public has. BBC’s choice on what to report is clearly biased towards Ukraine. Anyone can see that. 

I am not there on the ground. I am standing on the outside looking in.

Just because the BBC is not reporting what you want to hear does not make it biased. And to be honest I am surprised that they have time to report on a Russian "liberation" of the Ukraine, that is not their job, their job is to bring down the democratically elected government of the day and more to the point, its leader. 

The BBC is run by the liberal lefties, so what would be their motive to back the innocent oppressed Ukrainians againgst the violent illegal invaders and aggressive Russians and indeed if that is the case that they are backing the Ukraine I for once will doff my cap to them, because it's been a long time a coming. 

 

[Fanta]

28 minutes ago, BigHewer said:

Nothing to report, or is Russia/Ukraine being quietly ushered to one side?

No good news to report is most likely the case. The Russians are on the march and it appears the UAF are getting hammered. 

[oldschooler]

2 hours ago, snapdragon said:

IMO, Ukraine has lost the conflict.

All the nonsense promoted by the MSM about Russia losing is now being shown to be just that; nonsense.

Have a job to find the conflict on the BBC web site*. It was top of the pops for a couple of months but it's now difficult to find anything. Monkey-pox has taken over as the main item. But partying at number 10 is prominent too.

I think it will all be settled soon. Russia will control all the sea-shore. They have no ambition, or indeed reason, to move on Kiev, although the threat of that will stay in the west's minds.

Let's hope the US and the UK have learn a lesson. Don't provoke a nuclear power. Or as some might say; don't bite off more than you can chew.

* UK section

Your “ opinion” is clearly baseless fantasy

War perhaps “stalemated” for now. 
Although as Defenders, it is Ukraine/ NATO “ winning” perhaps since aggressor Russia clearly is not and Sanctions continue to wreck Russian economy

Your projections and rhetoric are pure pro- Russian propaganda.

Backward Russian Gangsters have no positive “lessons” to teach the advanced civilized West.

Only unwanted evil lessons like how to steal whole industries from their swindled people.

BBC News Online has a “ War In Ukraine” section with six stories today.

NATO have not “ bitten off” anything. 
Russia obviously has and is being painfully reduced with Ukrainian spirit / deeds & NATO Aid/Sanctions. 

Kiev falling to Russia now a joke idea / no threat. Russia Defeated there.End.

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Find the word surrender in this article. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61472025

The BBC’s reporting on this conflict is neither unbiased nor objective. It is biased and subjective which is OK for opinion pieces but far from OK for factual news reporting. Anyone would think the UK itself was at war the way Kyiv’s propaganda is being regurgitated without it being questioned first. The use of euphemisms, promotion of Russian losses and minimizing of Ukrainian losses shows a clear bias and implies the message that Ukraine is winning which is clearly not the case. Fake AF. 

Article clearly stated the facts in neutral professional manner, respecting the brave defenders.

I could detect no obvious bias. Western media are certainly not going to be publicizing Russian lies/propaganda.  

They will not therefore be using  unnecessary demoralizing absolute disrespectful terms like “surrender”which implies “ unconditional” which was not the case. Deal was made to “ lay down arms and evacuate”. End.

Perhaps write & flog your own (unread) articles then, rather than selecting your preferred pro- Russian terms for Western MSM to use.

[oldschooler]

33 minutes ago, Fanta said:

No good news to report is most likely the case. The Russians are on the march and it appears the UAF are getting hammered. 

Both sides getting “ hammered” no doubt. Russian Artillery now outranged by US Howitzers (which can hit logistics hub Belgorod inside Russia)….

Unclear how Russia is “ on the march” against that…..except to lose further men / machines…so far 30,000 dead Russians  & 3,000 smashed armoured vehicles.  Any more “ winning” like that for little gain would be simply ruinous. 

[Fanta]

2 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Article clearly stated the facts in neutral professional manner, respecting the brave defenders.

I could detect no obvious bias. Western media are certainly not going to be publicizing Russian lies/propaganda.  

They will not therefore be using  unnecessary demoralizing absolute disrespectful terms like “surrender”which implies “ unconditional” which was not the case. Deal was made to “ lay down arms and evacuate”. End.

Perhaps write & flog your own (unread) articles then, rather than selecting your preferred pro- Russian terms for Western MSM to use.

It was an unconditional surrender at Mariupol.  Any other term is a euphemism at best, deception at worst. Zelenskky’s appeal to “influential people” and  negotiations yielded absolutely nothing except a Red Cross head count.

“Ukraine's military said on Tuesday it was working to evacuate all remaining troops from their last stronghold in Mariupol, appearing to cede control of the besieged port city to Russia after months of bombardment.”’

Laying down arms,  walking into Russian captivity for  transfer to Russian controlled territory and internment as a POW is an evacuation? A hole in the ground is a stronghold? It is a death sentence waiting to be carried out. That “stronghold” would have become a slag pit, an underwater no-fun park or a slow and hungry/thirsty death for all. There is nothing disrespectful about acknowledging that it was a surrender that it saved lives unless you believe that the defenders should have fought to the death. To the last Ukrainian?

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

The BBC, and all news outlets, choose what to report. Their access to information from numerous sources is far, far greater than the general public has. BBC’s choice on what to report is clearly biased towards Ukraine. Anyone can see that. 

I am not there on the ground. I am standing on the outside looking in.

No, they don’t & it is not.

They would publish factual data from Russia too but that simply doesn’t exist except observed ACTIONS. And we just don’t need to hear anything anyway from the lying Tyrant Aggressor. Russian Actions speak Sufficiently.

Allies in WW2 did not pass on Goebbels speeches to their citizens either. Not their job to undermine the cause of Righteous Justice.

Military Experts speaking directly to us daily on western MSM have sufficient current intelligence to present faithfully & evidentially in summary to the public.

Otherwise they lose their reputations & jobs under accountable western peer review.

Couldn’t care less what the witless MSM presenters &  journos “ have”. 
Only that they also report properly which they clearly do… or face accountable consequences….being criticized by a pro- Russian hack obviously doesn’t count

[oldschooler]

8 minutes ago, Fanta said:

It was an unconditional surrender at Mariupol.  Any other term is a euphemism at best, deception at worst. Zelenskky’s appeal to “influential people” and  negotiations yielded absolutely nothing except a Red Cross head count.

“Ukraine's military said on Tuesday it was working to evacuate all remaining troops from their last stronghold in Mariupol, appearing to cede control of the besieged port city to Russia after months of bombardment.”’

Laying down arms,  walking into Russian captivity for  transfer to Russian controlled territory and internment as a POW is an evacuation? A hole in the ground is a stronghold? It is a death sentence waiting to be carried out. That “stronghold” would have become a slag pit, an underwater no-fun park or a slow and hungry/thirsty death for all. There is nothing disrespectful about acknowledging that it was a surrender that it saved lives unless you believe that the defenders should have fought to the death. To the last Ukrainian?

I do take your well- made expanded point BUT Ukraine can readily argue it was NOT unconditional surrender . Plus it’s always Defenders Decision Only when & how to “surrender”….. or not. 

An unconditional (battlefield) surrender would typically be a “ hands up” event by defenders with guns pointed directly at them or “white flag” presented ( “cease fire I’m coming out unarmed with hands up” scenario). 

Appears these events did not happen but prior deal cut, perhaps by phones. 

[Fanta]

45 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Both sides getting “ hammered” no doubt. Russian Artillery now outranged by US Howitzers (which can hit logistics hub Belgorod inside Russia)….

Unclear how Russia is “ on the march” against that…..except to lose further men / machines…so far 30,000 dead Russians  & 3,000 smashed armoured vehicles.  Any more “ winning” like that for little gain would be simply ruinous. 

You don’t keep up on the news? Sieverdonetsk is the last remaining city in the 90% Russian controlled Luhansk oblast and is now under attack. The next target will be the Donetsk oblast with the Russians attacking from the north and the south. That is the Donbas region under Russian control and Putin’s stated objectives largely achieved. 

Your “totally unbiased” figure of 30,000 dead Russians exceeds even Ukraine’s exaggerated claims of 29,000 killed, US claims of 10,000 killed and UK claims of 15,000 killed. Your claims of 3,000+ Russian vehicle losses equates to 30-40 vehicles a day. Ludicrous especially considering the media frenzy after the majority of a Russian BTG was destroyed crossing a river. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine

If the  Russians are getting hammered so badly how is it possible they are still moving forward and not resigned to their fate while weeping in despair and hiding in their foxholes. The MSM stories just don’t add up when compared to the maps showing invasion progress to date.

[snapdragon]

2 hours ago, BigHewer said:

No mention of Russia or Ukraine at all in the last Fox News bulletin. In addition to all the gun-related stories, there was a even a spot on Bruce Willis’s medical condition.

Nothing to report, or is Russia/Ukraine being quietly ushered to one side?

There is a subtle - or not so subtle to the awakened - rhetoric from the 'Ukraine will defeat Russia - especially with the west's advanced weaponry - to perhaps, 'a deal is not too bad a thing to consider'.

There is also the much used word 'unity'. It is consistently being used to underpin the west's perceived strength of itself. The outspoken people in power began to believe their own words. Things have now changed. Not with the outcome - which although always predictable - but with the perception of the outcome; and how to present it too the everyday populaces. Different countries and even western MSM outlets+ are now questioning the validity and sanity of it all. The US sanctions were ill-conceived and are now seen as such.

It is possible that the west, especially Europe, will see unimaginable hardships during peace-time; starting this year 2022. Have to go back a hundred years for an equivalent period of history. The sanctions are destroying the 'wrong' economies.

IMO, there is a shift towards the acknowledgement, and indeed acceptance, that the Russians were far too strong for Ukraine on the battle-field. That the propaganda is no longer doing the biz in the eyes, hearts and minds of the people. Time to sit down and talk about ending the conflict. Even if negotiations result in the inevitable redrawing of borders;

Now is the time to talk.

+ NYT

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

You don’t keep up on the news? Sieverdonetsk is the last remaining city in the 90% Russian controlled Luhansk oblast and is now under attack. The next target will be the Donetsk oblast with the Russians attacking from the north and the south. That is the Donbas region under Russian control and Putin’s stated objectives largely achieved. 

Your “totally unbiased” figure of 30,000 dead Russians exceeds even Ukraine’s exaggerated claims of 29,000 killed, US claims of 10,000 killed and UK claims of 15,000 killed. Your claims of 3,000+ Russian vehicle losses equates to 30-40 vehicles a day. Ludicrous especially considering the media frenzy after the majority of a Russian BTG was destroyed crossing a river. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine

If the  Russians are getting hammered so badly how is it possible they are still moving forward and not resigned to their fate while weeping in despair and hiding in their foxholes. The MSM stories just don’t add up when compared to the maps showing invasion progress to date.

UK MOD gives 70k Russian casualties off the battlefield so dead / wounded/ missing/ pow / deserters. Incredible Unsustainable Losses. Third of Invading Force. 

Read BBC News just now. 40 cities bombarded. Russians trying to surround large key city Severodonets. 
Waiting Ukraine counter- attack ……

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, snapdragon said:

There is a subtle - or not so subtle to the awakened - rhetoric from the 'Ukraine will defeat Russia - especially with the west's advanced weaponry - to perhaps, 'a deal is not too bad a thing to consider'.

There is also the much used word 'unity'. It is consistently being used to underpin the west's perceived strength of itself. The outspoken people in power began to believe their own words. Things have now changed. Not with the outcome - which although always predictable - but with the perception of the outcome; and how to present it too the everyday populaces. Different countries and even western MSM outlets+ are now questioning the validity and sanity of it all. The US sanctions were ill-conceived and are now seen as such.

It is possible that the west, especially Europe, will see unimaginable hardships during peace-time; starting this year 2022. Have to go back a hundred years for an equivalent period of history. The sanctions are destroying the 'wrong' economies.

IMO, there is a shift towards the acknowledgement, and indeed acceptance, that the Russians were far too strong for Ukraine on the battle-field. That the propaganda is no longer doing the biz in the eyes, hearts and minds of the people. Time to sit down and talk about ending the conflict. Even if negotiations result in the inevitable redrawing of borders;

Now is the time to talk.

+ NYT

All Utter Nonsense. Russian Apologist Propaganda. Did Stalin “talk” to Hitler ? No Talking. Let Evil Russia Bleed Out. Death to the Fascist Invader. Ukraine Will Never Surrender. 

[snapdragon]

7 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

All Utter Nonsense. Russian Apologist Propaganda. Did Stalin “talk” to Hitler ? No Talking. Let Evil Russia Bleed Out. Death to the Fascist Invader. Ukraine Will Never Surrender. 

They should negotiate. Pretty soon they won't have any army.

[vlad]

Don't provoke a Nuclear power why Comrade ??

[vlad]

5 hours ago, Fanta said:

Hungary and Italy are calling for a ceasefire and peace talks. The US Defense Secretary called for a ceasefire 2 weeks ago. The Donbas region is Ukraine’s strongest defensive area and if that falls then Zelenskyy will have to make the decision to either actively engage in peace talks or keep losing ground, men and equipment every day.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-cracks-widen-over-ukraine-italy-hungary-urge-truce-2022-05-25/ 

In the meantime, the best the BBC can do to promote the fake news that Ukraine is winning is to recycle a 2-3 week old Sky News article about 137 dead Russian soldiers on a refrigerated train. 
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61571855

if its fake news Haw-Haw why do you keep posting threads from the BBC.

[Fanta]

32 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

UK MOD gives 70k Russian casualties off the battlefield so dead / wounded/ missing/ pow / deserters. Incredible Unsustainable Losses. Third of Invading Force. 

Believable for an army that is on the offensive and also holding a 500+ km front line? I think No. 

[vlad]

4 hours ago, Fanta said:

Find the word surrender in this article. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61472025

The BBC’s reporting on this conflict is neither unbiased nor objective. It is biased and subjective which is OK for opinion pieces but far from OK for factual news reporting. Anyone would think the UK itself was at war the way Kyiv’s propaganda is being regurgitated without it being questioned first. The use of euphemisms, promotion of Russian losses and minimizing of Ukrainian losses shows a clear bias and implies the message that Ukraine is winning which is clearly not the case. Fake AF. 

Well if anyone knows about propaganda Haw-Haw you're the one.

[Fanta]

38 minutes ago, vlad said:

if its fake news why do you keep posting threads from the BBC

The BBC is a source that some are unwilling or unable to refute because it is held so near and close to their MSM enlarged hearts. To question the BBC is to the question  “the message” and that is an clearly an unacceptable risk for some.