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16 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Wasted my time for the last time............ moving on back to reality.

A factual study evidence link, proving a case beyond reasonable doubt, cannot be so simply, emotionally & wrongly dismissed, as “unreal”,  without causing loss of reputation. Tourism clearly is (or was) important here but far less so than Industry & Agriculture & Govt. sectors, for regular Thais working away from tourist areas. 

Furthermore,   “flow down” from Tourism to these Thais must logically be near zero as the construction workers on tourist - related Hotel , Villa & Condo Projects are nearly all Burma migrant workers sending money back home.

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1 hour ago, Stonker said:

I don't know how many times this has to be repeated.  You "tourists" have never been "the real problem" - the problem has always been tourism and what it needs to drive it: no mask wearing, entertainment open, unrestricted travel, and full service support.

You tourists aren't the problem - what you need is the problem.

Semantics. Without tourists there is no tourism and vice versa. We could talk about the questionable behaviour of some tourists, but this is not the issue here, rather a question of the willingness to enforce the law. 

I think the starting point are the requirements under which tourists are permitted into Thailand. And I repeat myself: I don't find the current regime cohesive and convincing. Ok, you say, then don't come here. Right. But then, if people like me stay away, this collides with the goal to inventivise tourist numbers. At the end without tourism/tourists there is also no tourist money. One goes with the other.

 

 

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On 1/22/2022 at 11:52 AM, Stevejm said:

I would rather come to Thailand for a holiday than UK where nobody takes any precautions. I was terrified of going to the shops there because of lack of precautions even though they were mandatory. I think my friends were glad when I left because I insisted that we sit outside the pub in single digit temperatures because I was too concerned about drinking inside with the maskless masses. I did a quick poll of my friends one night and more than 50% of 10 people had already had Covid.

The UK has had 150,000 deaths due primarily to a covid infection. That’s 0.2% of the population. 105,000 of those were over the age of 75. Average life expectancy in the UK is approximately 80 so many of those who died were already over the age of average life expectancy. Only 3,000 of those who died were under the age of 44. That’s 0.0044% of the population.  A number of your friends had already had covid but were happily drinking in the pub with you. I suspect none of them needed hospital treatment. It is, of course, your right to be ‘terrified’ if that’s your national reaction.  You say you feel safer in Thailand where daily road deaths far exceed daily covid deaths. If there’s any logic in that I fail to see it!

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6 minutes ago, Fundok said:

Semantics. Without tourists there is no tourism and vice versa. We could talk about the questionable behaviour of some tourists, but this is not the issue here, rather a question of the willingness to enforce the law.

No, it's not "semantics", far from it.

The claims is that "tourists" are personally being blamed for transmitting Covid, and the defence is that they're not bringing Covid in.

That isn't the problem, as I and others have tried to explain.  If you don't want to listen to that explanation or you want to dismiss it, that's up to you.

10 minutes ago, Fundok said:

I think the starting point are the requirements under which tourists are permitted into Thailand. And I repeat myself: I don't find the current regime cohesive and convincing. Ok, you say, then don't come here. Right. But then, if people like me stay away, this collides with the goal to inventivise tourist numbers. At the end without tourism/tourists there is also no tourist money. One goes with the other.

Well, that's your starting point.

My starting point is that there's no evidence the vast majority of Thais want "tourist money" at the moment, and plenty of evidence that they don't.

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6 hours ago, Fundok said:

I was truly shocked to see how many small businesses had closed down and even more, how few tourists were around. The photo was taken yesterday evening (Saturday), around 19:00. Usually by this time the place is crowded, but yesterday hardly any visitors werr around. With this in mind, the Phuket Sandbox may pay off for Phuket, but certainly not for places like Chiang Mai.

You  may say that Bangla is open in Patong (I guess mostly because I don't walk there with Covid, but if you do a tour of Patong you will see that a lot of businesses are closed. Small shops, restaurants...
Early December even Jungceylon (shops & restaurants) and Central opposite were closed.

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2 hours ago, Stonker said:

No, it's not "semantics", far from it.

The claims is that "tourists" are personally being blamed for transmitting Covid, and the defence is that they're not bringing Covid in.

That isn't the problem, as I and others have tried to explain.  If you don't want to listen to that explanation or you want to dismiss it, that's up to you.

Well, that's your starting point.

My starting point is that there's no evidence the vast majority of Thais want "tourist money" at the moment, and plenty of evidence that they don't.

Been to the Anusarn Night Market in Chiang Mai yesterday evening. Not my first trip to Chiang Mai, and not my first visit of the Night Market. Shocking to see how many sales stalls are unused, how businesses that have been there forever have given up and are now replaced or are simply closed. I suspect that at least those (former) business owners and their families would be very to have an opportunity to get this "tourist money". In fact, no one I spoke with indicated that they are happy with the current situation. I am sure, others with no affiliation to the tourism industry may have a different view, so let's agree on "some want tourist money, others not". And we should bear in mind that the money earned with tourism floods back in the economy, buying food, goods etc. So even the shops selling, say, electronic appliances, depends to some extent on customers that have earned money stemming from the tourism industry. Anyway, we cannot really determine empirically what the viewpoint of the Thai general population is, so let's agree on we both have a point here.

 

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4 minutes ago, Alavan said:

You  may say that Bangla is open in Patong (I guess mostly because I don't walk there with Covid, but if you do a tour of Patong you will see that a lot of businesses are closed. Small shops, restaurants...
Early December even Jungceylon (shops & restaurants) and Central opposite were closed.

I've been to Bangla last week, but not at night, so I really can't make an assessment how populated it is nowadays. But even then I could see that quite a number of businesses have closed for good. But over here in Chiang Mai at the night market it was even more evident.

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3 hours ago, Leeshard said:

The UK has had 150,000 deaths due primarily to a covid infection. That’s 0.2% of the population. 105,000 of those were over the age of 75. Average life expectancy in the UK is approximately 80 so many of those who died were already over the age of average life expectancy. Only 3,000 of those who died were under the age of 44. That’s 0.0044% of the population.  A number of your friends had already had covid but were happily drinking in the pub with you. I suspect none of them needed hospital treatment. It is, of course, your right to be ‘terrified’ if that’s your national reaction.  You say you feel safer in Thailand where daily road deaths far exceed daily covid deaths. If there’s any logic in that I fail to see it!

I insisted that my friends drink outside the pub because I knew that I had to pass several tests in order to get back into Thailand. I was also staying with my 83 year old mother and I didn’t want to infect her. I feel safer in Thailand because I don’t have to interact with unmasked people. I don’t use the roads in Thailand apart from occasional taxi rides in Bangkok. Most of my friends who had had Covid had been double jabbed and didn’t suffer severe symptoms. The ones who caught it before being jabbed suffered severely for many months. All of my friends are in their 50s. If you are trying to argue that people who are older than the average life expectancy don’t really matter I think there is something wrong with you. 

Edited by Stevejm
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3 hours ago, Leeshard said:

The UK has had 150,000 deaths due primarily to a covid infection. That’s 0.2% of the population. 105,000 of those were over the age of 75. Average life expectancy in the UK is approximately 80 so many of those who died were already over the age of average life expectancy. Only 3,000 of those who died were under the age of 44. That’s 0.0044% of the population.  A number of your friends had already had covid but were happily drinking in the pub with you. I suspect none of them needed hospital treatment. It is, of course, your right to be ‘terrified’ if that’s your national reaction.  You say you feel safer in Thailand where daily road deaths far exceed daily covid deaths. If there’s any logic in that I fail to see it!

PS one impact of covid that you don’t seem to consider is that the people occupying hospital beds ( who are mainly unvaccinated) are preventing people who need medical treatment from being treated. Hospital staff who test positive and have to isolate aren’t going to work resulting in delays in treatment for people who have all kinds of illnesses. Just analyzing Covid deaths is a very simplistic view and doesn’t take account of all the people who will suffer due to delay in treatment for cancer and other illnesses. High infection rates can have a knock on effect resulting in unnecessary deaths of people of all ages. The ambulance service is so stretched now in UK due to Covid related absences that heart attack victims are recommended to take a taxi to hospital rather than wait for the paramedics to attend. 

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4 hours ago, Leeshard said:

The UK has had 150,000 deaths due primarily to a covid infection. That’s 0.2% of the population. 105,000 of those were over the age of 75. Average life expectancy in the UK is approximately 80 so many of those who died were already over the age of average life expectancy. Only 3,000 of those who died were under the age of 44. That’s 0.0044% of the population.  A number of your friends had already had covid but were happily drinking in the pub with you. I suspect none of them needed hospital treatment. It is, of course, your right to be ‘terrified’ if that’s your national reaction.

As has been pointed out ad nauseam, it's not just about Covid deaths - what about all those who have Long Covid who miss months off work and can only work at a reduced rate? Those with 'brain fog' for up to nine months afterwards? What about the now unbelievable waits for routine operations and even an ambulance?

It's not about being "terrified", but about accepting reality and considering others.

4 hours ago, Leeshard said:

You say you feel safer in Thailand where daily road deaths far exceed daily covid deaths. If there’s any logic in that I fail to see it!

Maybe @Stevejm doesn't drive a motorbike, or he wears a helmet.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/19/world/asia/thailand-inequality-road-fatalities.html

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2 hours ago, Fundok said:

Been to the Anusarn Night Market in Chiang Mai yesterday evening. Not my first trip to Chiang Mai, and not my first visit of the Night Market. Shocking to see how many sales stalls are unused, how businesses that have been there forever have given up and are now replaced or are simply closed. I suspect that at least those (former) business owners and their families would be very to have an opportunity to get this "tourist money". In fact, no one I spoke with indicated that they are happy with the current situation. I am sure, others with no affiliation to the tourism industry may have a different view, so let's agree on "some want tourist money, others not". And we should bear in mind that the money earned with tourism floods back in the economy, buying food, goods etc. So even the shops selling, say, electronic appliances, depends to some extent on customers that have earned money stemming from the tourism industry.

Of course they're not "happy" with it, but have any of those business owners protetsed about wanting the borders opened, or organised any petitions to do so?  The Thai ones, that is, not the foreign ones?

No.

On the other hand, have they asked for government support and complained about that, just to show that they're not as sheep-like as some say?

Yes, many have.

When government officials visited Phuket over the last year or so to sound out opinion on re-opening the borders, did any of the business owners (the Thai ones that is) say that they wanted the borders re-opened?

No.

While surveys are notoriously unreliable, have any shown any support for opening the borders beynd a very small minority?

No.

Did those surveys show a clear vast majority opposing the border being opened>

Yes.

2 hours ago, Fundok said:

Anyway, we cannot really determine empirically what the viewpoint of the Thai general population is, so let's agree on we both have a point here.

Sorry, but while I agree that there's no way of establishing the Thai view empirically, I think all the indicators point only one way and I doubt they're all wrong.

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9 minutes ago, Stonker said:

As has been pointed out ad nauseam, it's not just about Covid deaths - what about all those who have Long Covid who miss months off work and can only work at a reduced rate? Those with 'brain fog' for up to nine months afterwards? What about the now unbelievable waits for routine operations and even an ambulance?

It's not about being "terrified", but about accepting reality and considering others.

Maybe @Stevejm doesn't drive a motorbike, or he wears a helmet.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/19/world/asia/thailand-inequality-road-fatalities.html

Correct I don’t ride a motorcycle anymore. Your points about waiting times etc. are exactly what I was trying to point out in my earlier post. One of my older friends was being prepped for surgery when I was back home after waiting 4 years for the operation then had the operation cancelled at the last minute because a covid patient took the bed he was going to be placed in post operation. He hasn’t even got a date for his surgery now. I am pleased that you seem to get the point.

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On 1/21/2022 at 5:27 PM, AussieBob said:

...Too unpredictable...

Exactly. 

The hospitalization and insurance are both too unpredictable, from stories I've read. 

Test me everyday, make me stay in a hotel, ok

But let me choose to self-quarantine if I'm in a "Sha extra plus" hotel.

That's why I'm required to stay there, no? 

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3 hours ago, Vince said:

Exactly. 

The hospitalization and insurance are both too unpredictable, from stories I've read. 

Test me everyday, make me stay in a hotel, ok

But let me choose to self-quarantine if I'm in a "Sha extra plus" hotel.

That's why I'm required to stay there, no? 

I would suggest that it is still a really bad time to travel anywhere internationally at the moment but if you really need to then “ Plan for the worst and hope for best” then make a decision based on your assessment of the risk/ reward . Other than that take all possible precautions to avoid catching the virus whatever local requirements are in place ( bearing in mind that the incubation period for Covid can be up to 14 days). The best option is to delay travel until more acceptable requirements are in place. 

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5 minutes ago, Stevejm said:

I would suggest that it is still a really bad time to travel anywhere internationally at the moment but if you really need to then “ Plan for the worst and hope for best” then make a decision based on your assessment of the risk/ reward . Other than that take all possible precautions to avoid catching the virus whatever local requirements are in place ( bearing in mind that the incubation period for Covid can be up to 14 days). The best option is to delay travel until more acceptable requirements are in place. 

Sage advice. 

I want to see some assurance of predictable outcomes.

If Thailand is to be a medical tourism destination I would think twice about setting up a mandatory test with unpredictable outcomes, and requiring insurance that doesn't cover reasonable and related expenses. 

And I feel Thailand is very capable of solving these problems. 

I am hopeful these issues will be sorted in the near future.

Maybe we can have clear guidance by the summer, when omicron data is fully absorbed. 

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20 hours ago, Stonker said:

Oh please ... are you somehow unaware of the red / yellow shirt confrontations, and what has amounted to near civil war in Bangkok over the last few decades?

Have you gone to any city hall in Issan when policies have been changed that are unpopular, such as changing lottery sales recently?

You are looking back to the past , when was the last time this country of 66 million had a demonstration of even 50,000 marching in the streets .  I know there are small scale demonstrations particularly in Bangkok but there is no appetite for anything truly representative of the people numbers wise.  

 

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14 hours ago, Stevejm said:

Correct I don’t ride a motorcycle anymore. Your points about waiting times etc. are exactly what I was trying to point out in my earlier post. One of my older friends was being prepped for surgery when I was back home after waiting 4 years for the operation then had the operation cancelled at the last minute because a covid patient took the bed he was going to be placed in post operation. He hasn’t even got a date for his surgery now. I am pleased that you seem to get the point.

Oh the glories of socialized medicine. You might wait for ever, covid or no covid.

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13 minutes ago, LoongFred said:

Oh the glories of socialized medicine. You might wait for ever, covid or no covid.

Not True otherwise half of my family would be dead already. Or alive and bankrupt!

Edited by Stevejm
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On 1/22/2022 at 12:49 AM, Stonker said:

It's not just "foreigners", for crying out loud!

There's no racism or discrimination here - it's equally stupid for everyone!

If anything it's even more stupid for Thais coming home.

After spending the first day in a SHA+ hotel waiting for their PCR test result, which is reasonable, they can then go home ... but on day 5 after their PCR test they then have to go to another SHA+ hotel just to wait for the test results, then even if they're positive as long as they only have mild symptoms they can go home again 😂!

... and you think it's bad for 'foreigners' 😂!

That's why I believe that someone is making good money on these ridiculous restrictions. People are more often greedy than completely stupid.

And about foreigners mistreatment: a lot of people already told here that it makes no sense to severely punish asymptomatic tourists with 10-days quarantine in over-priced hospitels when they have 8k new local omicron cases without any tourists involved. It just looks like they want us to spend 10 times more money than we expected in Thailand for very shitty service in return.

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38 minutes ago, Dmitrii said:

That's why I believe that someone is making good money on these ridiculous restrictions. People are more often greedy than completely stupid.

And about foreigners mistreatment: a lot of people already told here that it makes no sense to severely punish asymptomatic tourists with 10-days quarantine in over-priced hospitels when they have 8k new local omicron cases without any tourists involved. It just looks like they want us to spend 10 times more money than we expected in Thailand for very shitty service in return.

Ah the "corrupt Thailand" explanation. 

It's possible. But it's also possible Dimitri that maybe other countries have policies that favor some group or company? 

And maybe these policies are attempts to adapt to the changing situation - including tourists who refuse to stay in their hotels ?

I don't think any tea money changed hands to make Estonian and Israeli tourists bunny hop out of their rooms? But maybe it did. I don't know. 

 

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On 1/22/2022 at 11:46 PM, Fundok said:

Semantics. Without tourists there is no tourism and vice versa. We

This assumes that tourism is inflexible, that current policies won't change, etc. 

There is no "no tourism" scenario unless Thailand becomes North Korea II and even NK has tourists! 

On 1/22/2022 at 11:46 PM, Fundok said:

 could talk about the questionable behaviour of some tourists, but this is not the issue here, rather a question of the willingness to enforce the law. 

So if crime surges the criminals are irrelevant, it's about the police who don't catch them? 

Maybe a problem is about everyone involved? 

On 1/22/2022 at 11:46 PM, Fundok said:

I think the starting point are the requirements under which tourists are permitted into Thailand. And I repeat myself: I don't find the current regime cohesive and convincing. Ok, you say, then don't

As opposed to the cohesive and convincing British, American, or Brazilian regimes? 

 

On 1/22/2022 at 11:46 PM, Fundok said:

 come here. Right. But then, if people like me stay away, this collides with the goal to inventivise tourist numbers. At the end

Does it?  Not knowing who people like you are (and I'm not asking, don't ask don't tell is my motto) - you are assuming current actions are forever. 

On 1/22/2022 at 11:46 PM, Fundok said:

 without tourism/tourists there is also no tourist money. One goes with the other.

A dramatic statement but no scenario other than border closure aka North Korea II would be "no tourism". 

Maybe Thailand wants fewer tourists so it can stop managing them so much? Who knows? 

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On 1/22/2022 at 9:52 PM, Stevejm said:

How does the government make money from insurance?

It is easy to explain: let's say that you have spent $500 for your hotel booking and transfer + $1000 for your entertainment. So, you have brought $1500 to Thailand and please be assured that their government will have their fair share of this money.

Now let's imagine that you have been tested positive on day 1 or day 5 or 3 days before departure. Then you will be put into a hospital hotel and all of a sudden you will have to spend $2500+ in addition. So, you are spending at least $3000 now. So, their government will have at least 2 times more money from you and your insurance company. 

And we should not forget about corruption - highly likely these quarantine facilities are either linked to Thais in power or share their profits or simply have bribed them up front.

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1 hour ago, Dmitrii said:

That's why I believe that someone is making good money on these ridiculous restrictions. People are more often greedy than completely stupid.

How?

Of course "someone" is making a profit - that's what hotels and private hospitals do otherwise they'd be out of business.

There's a world of difference between that and the idea that it's the reason behind the system as "they" are going to profit from it.

1 hour ago, Dmitrii said:

And about foreigners mistreatment: a lot of people already told here that it makes no sense to severely punish asymptomatic tourists with 10-days quarantine in over-priced hospitels when they have 8k new local omicron cases without any tourists involved. It just looks like they want us to spend 10 times more money than we expected in Thailand for very shitty service in return.

What "foreigners mistreatment"?

They're being treated exactly the same as Thais in the same position.

There's not a fraction of a difference.

None.

You don't want to accept what are very easily verifiable facts, so there's not really much point repeating them.

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25 minutes ago, Dmitrii said:

It is easy to explain: let's say that you have spent $500 for your hotel booking and transfer + $1000 for your entertainment. So, you have brought $1500 to Thailand and please be assured that their government will have their fair share of this money.

Now let's imagine that you have been tested positive on day 1 or day 5 or 3 days before departure. Then you will be put into a hospital hotel and all of a sudden you will have to spend $2500+ in addition. So, you are spending at least $3000 now. So, their government will have at least 2 times more money from you and your insurance company. 

And we should not forget about corruption - highly likely these quarantine facilities are either linked to Thais in power or share their profits or simply have bribed them up front.

See above - it's just pointless trying to explain anything rationally.

If that's the way you feel, you're better off not coming here or going to any of those nasty corrupt foreign places and just staying at home.

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24 minutes ago, Dmitrii said:

It is easy to explain: let's say that you have spent $500 for your hotel booking and transfer + $1000 for your entertainment. So, you have brought $1500 to Thailand and please be assured that their government will have their fair share of this money.

Now let's imagine that you have been tested positive on day 1 or day 5 or 3 days before departure. Then you will be put into a hospital hotel and all of a sudden you will have to spend $2500+ in addition.

 

I've heard some people say they self quarantine and some reports of field hospitals. Are hospital hotels different from "Sha extra plus" hotels? 

How do you get $2500 (cad? Aud? Usd?) - days and rate please. 

 

24 minutes ago, Dmitrii said:

 

So, you are spending at least $3000 now. So, their government will have at least 2 times more money from you and your insurance company. 

And we should not forget about corruption - highly likely these quarantine facilities are either linked to Thais in power or share their profits or simply have bribed them up front.

This seems like a murky link to the frequent "Thai corruption" that seems so popular a theme to explain anything with absolutely no proof. 

"Highly likely" because you say so? 

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